Jan. 24, 2022

5 Reasons Why You Will NEVER Become A Developer


You often hear about how so many aspiring developers struggle to break into the industry. I invited on a CEO of a coding bootcamp to share his top 5 reasons why most people don't become developers. It's brutally honest, but more importantly, we talk through a ton of advice on how to avoid these pitfalls. This one is really honest, so be ready.

Ludo Fourrage (guest):
Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/ludovicfourrage
Website - https://www.nucamp.co

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Transcript
Don Hansen:

All right. Welcome back to another web development podcast episode, where we help aspiring developers get jobs and junior developers grow today. We are gonna dive into all the major reasons, common reasons that we think developers aren't getting jobs. What's holding the back. Um, and Ludo, you know, you and I have had a lot of conversations if people don't know who you are, uh, Ludo is the CEO of new camp. So he obviously, um, has a pretty important place in the industry for helping a lot of aspiring developers finally break into the industry. Um, I had a lot of kind of side conversations with them. I like a stop process think has a lot of cool ideas, so we're gonna dive into them. But, um, welcome.

Ludo Fourrage:

Thank you, Don. Thanks for having me again. Good, everyone.

Don Hansen:

Yeah. It's always fun. We always have a lot of good conversations.

Ludo Fourrage:

I agree. Yeah. Well I animated

Don Hansen:

sometimes, but . Yeah, well, those, those are fun for me. Those are, you know, as long as like, I honestly need to start talking with a lot more people in the industry. Like heavily disagree with me as well. Those are really fun conversations. As long as they're constructive. I love those kind of animated conversations, but, um, I'll do more of those in the podcast, but let's dive into things. So. All right. Um, I brought you on for a reason, um, kind of just wanna feel the landscape. Um, we'll kind of just like go through things one at a time. We'll talk it out a bit, but yeah. So what is one way that you feel, uh, like what's one of the reasons that you feel like developers just will not get a job? What, what's the reason for that?

Ludo Fourrage:

Yeah. Um, so, and we're gonna go through the list, right? That we kind of, uh, thought about, but one of the first one that would mention is, uh, wanting to go into the industry for, I would say the, the wrong reasons. Um, and the wrong reasons will be just doing it for the money. Without really validating that you're gonna actually enjoy the job. Um, and of course there's gonna be a ton of people who are gonna want and need, you know, the compensation and the level of compensation. And that's often is reason enough, but they place in second position actually enjoying the day to day of being a web developer. And, and I say that it's something. People should actually test because you can actually know pretty easily without risk and without cost, if you're actually gonna enjoy it. Um, and so one ways obviously is you go online, you know, there's a plethora of free resources, and I know you've been advocating for many of them, uh, but spend time before doing anything else, spend time doing those free resources, learning on your own to really validate that okay. Beyond the compensation, you're actually gonna find a job that you're gonna enjoy. And like, uh, and I will say the more, you're gonna struggle in those moments, learning online, the more you're gonna realize if you like it or not, because the liking of it is really liking it during the struggle. and I know we'll talk about that. What do you think?

Don Hansen:

Yeah, it's a really good point. Um, and you know, I, it was kind of hard when this thought or when I had this start a while back, like years ago. Um, you know, a lot of people are just looking to up their financial situation. They're looking for a better life and that's, it's completely understandable. And I can empathize with that. And the reason why it's always a hard, no, if that's their main priority for me is just because most people that go into software engineering, uh, with that mindset and just focused on the money, it's like, they usually just don't become software engineers. Right. They give up along the way they, you know, they realize they don't really enjoy coding, but like, so there are other professions that you can go into that can pay more than what you're currently making that are easier to get into than software engineering, software engineering. Like I think maybe saying you have to have a passion for, it might be a little hyperbolic. You don't like need to be passionate about it, but you need to love the, the struggles. Like, you know, if you're spending three hours on this stupid little bug and you can't figure out where it is, you can get frustrated in the moment. But if you don't have that aha moment and you're like, oh my God, finally, all right, let's do it again. Let's go to the next bug. If you don't have. I it's a long journey. It's gonna be rough for you.

Ludo Fourrage:

That's right. It's super demanding of your time, your commitment and emotionally as well. It's gonna be very demanding. Um, I. You'll all you'll hear people say, Hey, I had to work, you know, every night, every weekend, two to four hours a day. And if you are just doing it, if your only motivation is the money, chances are, it's not gonna be enough to get you through that. Um, and so, and we are, I'm seeing sometimes, you know, people that are joining the bootcamp without having done that due diligence, like they're just, they're like, oh, I need a new job. What can I do? And I'm gonna sign up to the bootcamp plan. That's gonna be my very first step. And that's kind of a, I mean, that's a risk, that's a big risk because there's so many things you could do before, before signing up, because once you sign up, you're committing to, you know, financially and the schedule and everything. So I think, yeah, that's, um, it's an easy one to actually check off your list. Just make sure that you're enjoying it. That's something that you're gonna be able to stay committed to.

Don Hansen:

Yeah. Well, so you know, you, and I could say, you know, do these free resources, give it a try. Right. But I think a lot of people still have the question of, well, where is the line in the sand drawn of where like, I'm gonna know, like, how do, like, what am I looking for? How do I truly know? Like, this is for me, it's like, yeah, I kind of like solving the problem, but like, what does that mean? Yeah, I so like, can you elaborate more on like what, and this is kind of a really hard question. I don't think I fully thought it out, but can you elaborate more on like what software engineers should be looking for to really confirm that for themselves?

Ludo Fourrage:

Yeah, no, totally. Um, so the, the wrong way of validating, it will be doing simple tutorials online that only ask of you to copy and paste, to reproduce the steps. And you're gonna find enjoyment and it's gonna be quote unquote easy because you're gonna copy paste. It's gonna work and be like, yeah, I love it. It's working find, I would say Mo longer courses that put you in situations of not giving you all the answers. So find, I know, and it's probably more of a free code cab or a code academy or something like that. That really is gonna teach you some concepts. And yes, during that time, you're gonna do copy and paste. You're gonna, you know, practice in a quasi controled way, but then you're gonna be asked to solve a problem and you don't have all the answers, which means you're gonna have to be critically thinking about what you just learned, how you're gonna apply that. And the very first thing you're gonna experience is it's not gonna work. Like it used to work really great when you were doing just copy and based, but it's not gonna work at all, probably when you're gonna be like having to practice without all the answers. And that's the moment where are you able to spend the next three hours, you know, banging your head against the wall, wondering why is it not working and get at the, at the end of that. And hopefully you'll find the solution and feel a real rush of emotion, of positive emotion and really looking back and saying, okay, I really actually enjoyed the struggle and I enjoyed solving the problem. If you can go through that sequence, I will. And you're at the end of it. And you've, you were resourceful enough to fix it. I think it's a great sign. It doesn't mean that you're out of the woods. That doesn't mean that you're gonna still continue to enjoy it, but it's a great sign that yeah, you may actually, uh, be ready for, for learning more.

Don Hansen:

Let me ask you this. We're gonna take it as I, I think that's a, was a really good answer. Um, but let's take it a step back and you know, you, so a lot of coding, boot camps are like, I would say 95% of them are web development focused. Um, and I have a lot of people that come to me and they're just like, I wanna learn coding. And then I have to dive into like, what that means. Like what, like what about coding? Has you interested and peaked your curiosity, but like a lot of people, you know, they hear okay, let, mm. I think my question is changing real time. so if they hear web development is the way to go. Every coding bootcamp, teaching web development. Yeah. But they don't, but they kind of got interested in it because like, they're like, oh, I wish I could build a mobile app. I wish I could build like a desktop app to do things a little bit differently. Like I'm, I'm sick and tired of, uh, QuickBooks or I don't know, something like that. Like I've seen people on LinkedIn sharing their, uh, QuickBooks is the financial app. That's what it's called, right? Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. QuickBooks. Yeah. Yeah. And they're just sharing like their different versions of like a desktop version of QuickBooks and like trying to make it simpler for people. I, um, and I, I see stuff like that and that, I mean, I see people when you kind of have like a focus like that, you keep diving into it deeper and deeper and deeper. Cause that's a problem you really wanna solve. So I don't wanna tell people just going to web development. I don't think that's the right advice, but how, like what kind of advice would you give people that like, just know they wanna get into coding, but they don't really know which area of coding. How do you explore that?

Ludo Fourrage:

Hmm, like between mobile apps between web dev, between, um, or, or a, a app, a desktop app, or maybe just, you know, building an eCommerce website on, you know, weeks or whatever, those types of different

Don Hansen:

things or getting into like low level programming and, um, like getting

Ludo Fourrage:

yeah. Java or like, uh, uh, onboarding, uh, no embedded embedded devices. Um, how do you know which way to go it's? Um, well, I'll say that does, you could look at it from, okay, what's local to your area. What kind of companies are, you know, uh, hiring what those companies are, which skills are those companies hiring for? If you're looking into, you know, working locally, uh, you could. It's a tough one. It's a tough one. If any, and also a different type of answer, which is if you really wanna be able to be bifurcate in any direction, then maybe computer science is the way go because you'll have all the fundamental knowledge and a lot of exposure in those different areas. That will mean that you'll be able to pick up then where you want to go, which is why, by the way, people love because the computer science graduate can build a website. they can build a, a mobile app. They can, but they have the skills to get into any of those fields if they choose to. So it's a tough one. I'll say, I mean, if you really don't know and you feel just wanna make a safe bet, I'll say still go to web dev, cuz it's kind of the safe bet. I will also try to avoid things that are more advanced in terms of expectations. Like you can become a data scientist right off the bat. right. There's there's, there's levels of knowledge that you need to acquire before being a real good data scientist, same thing for machine learning. You know, you can just go there straight there. It's like saying, you know, I can become a surgeon and yet I haven't done year one of learning medicine. Now there's a, there's a RC of skills that you need to acquire to get in some

Don Hansen:

areas. I hear all the data science, boot camps, like just shaking their fist right now.

Ludo Fourrage:

I mean, don't you agree? I, I, yeah, I think you have to have, I mean, first data sense. You have to have some knowledge of SQL. You have to have some knowledge of Python. I mean, you have to learn all those fundamentals before you get into, okay. How am I gonna analyze the data? And, and I'm talking data science, not data analytics, I mean, data analytics, you can do it, you know, with it's kind of easier to grasp, but real data science. Yeah. It's uh, it's, it's a bigger deal. So yeah. Uh,

Don Hansen:

yeah. Um, yeah, that was another really good answer. It's it is hard. And I, I think that's a yes. Essence of like really what I got out of. Like, I don't know if there is an answer it's like, you can't explore trying to build a mobile app because it takes time to like learn the, the framework and, uh, just set everything up and learn the language that you need to learn and built in mobile app and then move to a desktop app. And you might try like hybrid approaches, like JavaScript can expand a lot of different areas as well, which is yeah. Interesting. Um, but yeah, it's, it's really hard to do that, but, um, yeah. Computer science to kind of like get a general feel. I wonder. I wanna move on from this topic, cuz I know there are more things, but anyone of the comments I want you to let me know, are there any good courses that literally give you like a good overlay of the trajectories of each path? Because I don't think I've come across any, um, I think Harvard had like a CS 50, which is a really good CS, uh, fundamentals class, but um, but to actually like go over like a lot of career trajectories and have that course go into detail about it. Let me know, I'm curious,

Ludo Fourrage:

you know, there's a meme in that space as well. I, I can't that remember exactly what the meme says and it's, before choosing a language, you really need to think about what you're gonna do for front end, what you're gonna do for backend, what you're gonna do to access your data, what you're gonna do to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then the answer is okay. JavaScript so that doesn't mean that says, you know, no matter what you're gonna wanna build, if you bet on JavaScript, chances are you're gonna be able to do it. Uh, and it's not that JavaScript actually. Yeah. It's kind of a trade of all jacks, J Jack of all trades. Sorry. So anyway.

Don Hansen:

Oh, I love, I mean, that's already gonna like ruffle a few feathers and I love it. I agree with you. Yeah. Yeah, I do. So, um, okay. I think that gave me kind of a good feel. Um, so in essence, just, um, Yeah. Just like really solidify that you're gonna enjoy coding. Take some time into it. Definitely. Don't jump out coding bootcamp to costs thousands, tens of thousands right away. Cause I see a lot of people do that too often. Um, what else holds people back? What's another reason someone will not become a developer.

Ludo Fourrage:

Yeah. I mean, and continuing on that point, right? So you wanna start online? No, no questions asked you wanna start online, free resources, figure out if you're gonna like it. The problem is if you feel like you're getting stuck, just doing that. And, and you've seen testimonials of people saying, Hey, I'm a self-taught, but I've been doing it for six months for one year. And. And self-taught is gonna be harder in terms of demand of, of, on yourself, because you're gonna have to be extra committed, extra rigorous with your time. And you're gonna have to figure out a way to build your own path from, you know, building a simple, as TML form to learning, react, to learning the, you know, all the front end type of things. Um, and so you have to recognize when you're stuck and when you need more help. Uh, and, and too often people confuse their failings as a self top developer with not being ready to be a developer when actually what they are failing at is just being able to secure their time, staying committed, finding the right path, which are something that you can actually get from other resources. Right. So find the, the, the. Find the signs that tell you that what you may be failing at is the, the support and the resources and the structure that you've created around you. And the answer by the way, may not be a cutting boot camp straight away. I mean, you just mentioned CS 50 versus again, you can find really structured experiences online, some free, some not too expensive, but at some point you're gonna wanna build on, you wanna have a path of six months, you know, uh, of, of investment of your time. It's something that gradually builds upon what you've done before. Uh, and people talk about it as, you know, the tutorial hell, where you keep repeating over and over the same type of exercise, you know, you're gonna do a TTO here. You're gonna do a Sodo, you know, Netflix here. You're gonna, I mean, all of that is nice, but you need to move beyond and pass that at some point.

Don Hansen:

Yeah, definitely. Um, and I've really, I love that you said like a coding bootcamp definitely isn't necessarily that option. Um, Because I quite frankly, like, you know, my audience, um, and I think people, uh, here and like a CEO of a coding bootcamp would be like, oh, well maybe you just mention it because he has a coding bootcamp, but like the, like we've talked about this before and there are tons of other options. We've talked about like different opportunities for, um, for mentorship career services, communities that you can join. It's like, let's actually dig into this for a few minutes. Um, so I would, I'm gonna contribute to something. I just wanna hear what other things you feel like self-taught developers can take advantage of. So one mentorship from an actual software engineer. So a couple things that you can do reach out in LinkedIn, usually like, you know, get involved with communities or if you see like a software engineer make a post, you don't make a comment on it. Like, like essentially when a software engineer creates a post, they, they love or. Love feedback is a strong word, but like they're creating that content to get some sort of feedback. And as a beginning software engineer, it's a beginning content creator. I can tell you that feedback is very scarce in the beginning. So like anyone that's leaving feedback and leaving a comment like, Hey, I, you know, I love what you said here. I disagree with what you said here. Like that's golden to them. I, I guarantee most people are gonna enjoy that. So, you know, leaving, finding software engineers on LinkedIn that are, uh, writing articles and stuff like that, leave a comment and then maybe reach out the DMS and ask for 10 minutes of their time. But like give that value up front and, you know, just, you know, be careful about how you, how you word it. But I think 10 minutes just asking someone to like bounce your ideas off of the path you're going down. Usually people can commit about 10 minutes. Once you start getting like 20 minutes, 30 minutes, I feel like 10 minutes is a sweet spot. Once you've already contributed that value. Uh, but reach out to software engineers and like just kind of get a real software engineer's opinion. And I say this because I almost gave 'em up on development. Because I just knew no software engineers. Yeah. In Indiana, like none whatsoever. I think the closest meetup was like some random tech meetup, you know, an hour away. And like, none of them were really software engineers and sometimes you just don't have that around you. So get that feedback from a real software engineer.

Ludo Fourrage:

Yeah. No, that's a good one. I I'll say for me, you're looking for something that's gonna carry you for several months, right? Like six months, if it's self-taught it could actually be a year. And so you wanna create a system and I'll use the, the gaming analogy, you know, looking for group. I think the system quite often is gonna be surrounding yourself with people that have the same intent and you progressing at the same pace. Right. And so that system is, I mean, you hear about it, you know, it's per programming, it's working on a project with other, other people, but, but you, you. Chances are, if you're doing it alone, or if you are one of 10,000 people, you know, the extreme, like, you know, super UD type of courses where, yeah, there's thousands of people available to help you, but you really, at the end of the day, you feel alone. You wanna have a group of people learning alongside you that are committed for the long run. And that's really the system of learning that you wanna create. Um, now of course that's why some people would think about cutting boot camp because that comes with that's part of the package. Right. And that's why there's a power in that. Uh, but I will say if you wanted to kind of replicate that yeah. Look for a group of people that are similar minded and you wanna have a tutor, you wanna have someone that's gonna kind of tell you what you're doing is right. Is doing, is doing it well or doing it wrong. Uh, but that's what I would try to.

Don Hansen:

Yeah, you ask good feedback. That's hard to replicate it. I feel like that's a, it's really hard. A lot of people give up. I think honestly, like you touched on something incredibly important. A lot of people, a lot of self-talk developers give up because they do not have the support that they need. Yeah.

Ludo Fourrage:

And it's not because they don't have the skills or they can't learn it it's they don't realize how much they're lacking support and they're giving up. But again, because we don't have the support, um, and, and that support structure, well, let me plug what coding boot camp in general do well and how it's hard to reproduce if you don't do it like that. What Gooding put can do well is they're gonna bring together people that are starting at the same date and are progressing together at the same pace. Which means you are a hundred percent guaranteed that for six months, you're always gonna have people around you who are deeply into the same context that you are so that when you have a problem, you're gonna say, Hey, I have a problem here. And you're gonna find that other people may have just now five minutes to go solve that problem, uh, or, or are totally aware of your context, right? And not gonna help or you're gonna have in a structure that's gonna help. If you were to reproduce that on your own, the challenge is first, it's gonna be hard for the same group to progress as at the same pace. And what is it important? It's because you said it before. If you randomly ask someone to help you, that person is gonna give you 10 minutes. If you have to explain all the context of what type of help you need, you've already lost 10 minutes. You're never actually gonna get the help that will help because that's too much context in your request. That's why, if you are learning on new D or course edX, and you have an issue, and you're asking in the forums. There's so much effort on the other hand to help you because nobody's at the same pace. Nobody's exactly where you are. That'd be super hard to actually get the help at that moment in time. So that's the, yeah, that's that, but that's ultimately, what's what you're seeking. You're seeking the super of others and a cohort of people going through exactly the same thing at your own pace.

Don Hansen:

I wanna say two things, two things that changed networking for me entirely. When I was becoming a developer, often I share the story of, I got my first job because I streamed on Twitch, a live streamed on Twitch. And I had no idea what I was doing. Thought people had no idea. Like they didn't care what I had to say. They just, uh, like they were probably gonna be judgemental or leave. And, but what ended up happening was, um, over time I gained a lot of followers on Twitch and I average about like 30 to 50 viewers, which, uh, seven years ago, that was kind of a lot for me. I've never had that many people like watch me do something. Um, and so, but the beautiful thing is like 95% of them were learning from me, from me as I was trying to become a developer. Right. And so what I did, I put myself out there, I shared my journey with people and people started connecting with me. Because of my thought process, they connected with me because they saw me trying to help people, even though I like didn't have tons of knowledge. They're like, this is pretty cool. You know, he's just giving back the little that he can. And, um, a really cool thing happened where I started to create kind of a little bit of a community and connect with other aspiring developers, other software engineers that were, and they'd watch my content. And it was just like, they were kind of at a similar pace. They were trying to become developers. It was really cool experience to create that, that group aspect focused on that shared goal. And yeah, 5% of the viewers, they were senior software engineers that I could reach out to at any time I could DM them. I could hop on zoom with them. I had, you know, people that would help me moderate, uh, my discord community in the past. And like, I, I met and it wasn't until I put myself out there. That's when I finally connected with all these senior software engineers. Right. And so they were online. And I think I was a little bit too hesitant to ask for their help, which was an O it was like an ego thing. And it was a long time ago. So I don't really remember, but I should have put myself out there more to say, Hey, can we hop on? You know, I really wanna check where I'm going with this. And so that was a really cool way that I recreated that experience a little bit. And so a second way was when I got into the software engineering industry, I didn't, I still didn't know like a whole lot of software engineers in Chicago. And, you know, I met people on the team and, you know, they'd be a little bit helpful. And then I decided to start a meetup. My meetup grew to like 1500 members and all of a sudden I went from like, You know, small junior software engineer and a team to like a software engineer. That's helping, you know, over a thousand other engineers. And now a lot of other senior engineers, CTOs, and people wanted to reach out and just say kind at first, just say like, Hey, you're doing a great job. Keep doing what you're doing. If you ever need help, you know, let me know. And I immediately, like when I put myself out there again to help people created all these like countless number of connections that I have on LinkedIn right now, and I continue building them because I continue helping people. And so I'm not saying you have to become a content creator, but what I am saying is when you put yourself out there and you share that vulnerability and you're willing to help people and let them help you, you start to create that support group that a lot of self-taught developers, like if you wanna get that support group, put yourself out there, share your story, share your projects, be vulnerable with it. That's where I see people starting to get a lot of support. Even from senior software engineers that start guiding them along the right

Ludo Fourrage:

way. No, you're absolutely right. So a few things to build on that, that trait of really putting yourself out there, networking is gonna help you throughout your journey, but it's gonna also help you secure the job, right? Like you said, you've graduated. Great. You need to put yourself out there at that moment as well to, you know, share your progress, engage in convers where engaging conversations. There's a ton of value in new joining existing conversations and just chiming in. People who chime in are gonna be noticed. People who don't and stay silent, nobody's gonna see them. So just chime in, engage in the conversation. You don't have to lead them necessarily, right? You don't to your point. No, not everyone needs to be a, twitcher a Twitch swimmer, but engage. Right. engage in the conversation. Share your point of view, you know, show up as a smart guy or gal, and that's gonna help. And I'll say something else. I think you said, talked about meetups. There was unfortunately before the pandemic, a wonderful website, meetup.com that had a ton of, you know, local groups of aspiring developers coming together with senior developers, which I was a very vibrant scene of meetups sometimes also sponsored by local companies. And that was. And hopefully, maybe it still is in some areas in the us or, or the world, but that was a great environment for you to find those people that are trying to do exactly what you're trying to do and support you in your learning journey. Um, yeah. So if you can find that, that, that, that's fantastic as well. I joined the local groups now, maybe it's virtual, but if it's in person even better and create those con those, those connections.

Don Hansen:

Yeah. I mean, yeah. So I love, I love the recommendation to like engage in conversations and I, I think. I think that was such good advice, right? Yeah. Meetup, um, you, well, just to give quick advice, like meetups, there's still meetups. I actually am shutting down my meetup this month, but that's just because of, um, Chicago and just how everything's being operated there. But like, there are a lot of meetups still that exist. There's still meetups, uh, in person online, there are event, right? There's online discord communities, online, slack communities, hackathons. Um, there's so many opportunities to kind of engage. Um, but yeah, it's just, man, you, you nailed it. It's like a lot of people are so scared just to engage in the conversation. I think a lot of people feel like they're gonna sound stupid and like, they're gonna tell the world, look, you know, I'm not as bright as I'm trying to sell myself as right.

Ludo Fourrage:

And the reality is it's a, it's a valid worry. Sure. Right. Um, you, um, it's a tough one because you don't wanna appear stupid. Indeed. You don't wanna appear as lube. Uh, and you could, but you have to build that confidence. Uh, and, and maybe the very first post, you know, you're gonna have them reviewed by someone else. Uh, I, I don't, I wouldn't, you know, brush it off. I said, no, you're not the you're never gonna look stupid. You cool. And it could be a bad thing. seriously. Fair enough. Um, I have some idea. I, I have some reference in mind of people posting on LinkedIn. I was like, I dunno that I will have said that. And I don't know that it's gonna look very good in the eyes of a recruiter. I'm not sure you should have done it, but so yeah, you wanna be thoughtful. You wanna be thought.

Don Hansen:

yeah. And how you come. Yeah, I guess that's a really good point. It's like, you're not gonna look stupid just because you ask a technical question that you're like, you know, who cares if you didn't know it it's like the fact that you're even willing to ask that question. Do you know how many junior developers and entry level developers that like will literally stunt their growth because they're not willing to ask more questions. Right? They's always, so if you're stuck and sometimes people stay stuck for days without speaking up, um, this happens like coding boot camps companies, but that's not what is gonna make you look stupid. It's it's the wording and how you come across about how you ask the question. That's, that's what you're kind of getting

Ludo Fourrage:

at it. It's more you, how you're gonna be, how your behavior is gonna be interpreted, how your personality is gonna be viewed. Are you more of a glass, half full or glass tea kind of person? You know, what are you gonna be? Uh, you know, yeah, it's all that you're gonna be. It's the perception you're gonna create about who you are as an individual, not necessarily your technology level or yeah. The, the, the technical questions you're gonna ask.

Don Hansen:

Yeah, exactly. Keep it positive. Yeah. Um, okay. What else? What, what's another thing that prevents developers from becoming developers. So is,

Ludo Fourrage:

so we we've touched on it a little bit, but there's an emotional aspect to being a developer. Um, and, and you see that sometimes in, in, uh, in movies and stuff, right? Um, one movie that I really enjoy is social network that kind of described, uh, the journey of Marcus Zuckerberg and Facebook. And, and you see them at some point, I think rent California, they rented the house and the developers are there. And, and, and mark Z Greenberg, or the actor says, no, you cannot talk to that person. He's in the zone. There is that notion that. when you reach a point as a developer, you can actually really get completely involved in your code. You're in the zone and you just created a burger around you. Right. And, and you could actually be in that zone for hours, you know, just eating pizza, drinking, but like, you're not gonna be available too much to any other people. You're not gonna talk. You're just gonna focus on your code. It's just an emotional trait. And I'm not saying everybody should be like that, but, but it varies that notion that emotionally coding can be fully absorbing and it could be very challenging to handle, especially when it doesn't work. Again, I go back to that. When the code doesn't work, you can have a level of stress that you're actually wondering if you're ever gonna be able to solve it. And I've experienced that myself, by the way. , you know, the code that is in production is not working anymore and it's like, it's bad and you're looking at it and you're like, am I even gonna be able to fix it? And there's a level of stress there and, and, and you, the, the emotion is so high. You're gonna hear people, you know, literally saying, I want to bang my head against the wall. I wanna throw the computer out the window. Uh, and for some people it's too much, it's actually too high. And they actually, if they don't wanna leave that live through that again. Uh, and, and so that's something you have to, you know, evaluate for yourself as well when you are gonna be in that situation. And by the way, you're gonna be in that situation super quickly. Um, guarantee you're gonna miss the same semicolon somewhere very fast, right. Or, or bracket. Um, and you're gonna, you're gonna feel that thing. You're gonna be like, okay, when is enough and, and how am I handling that? And so it's gonna be a great sign. Are you capable of being a developer? Can you handle that, that emotion as well?

Don Hansen:

There's a, um, meme. I think I disliked on LinkedIn, uh, a week or two ago. Um, a junior developer says, um, You know, I really, I just got hired. I really hope that I don't scrub any code in production or I'm gonna get fired. And the senior developer says I've had three outages named after me in production. that's right. Like it's such a good message for junior developers. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's okay to make those mistakes. I remember my first developer job, um, and the entire website went down and it was after, uh, code that I kind of just pushed up and then it was launched by a DevOps and all of a sudden, like the entire front I went down, I'm like, yeah. Oh shit. What did I just do? And the thing is it wasn't my fault. it was your fault. Uh, but I was so scared and I remember, uh, I remember, uh, the, my Bo well, the CTO came by. He's like, um, cuz he figured out what the problem was and he's like, Were you scared that it was your fault? He like, he was just reading my mind. I didn't say anything. I'm like, yeah. I, I thought I just took the website down. He's like, yeah. I took the website down it's like, oh, okay. And so, um, uh, or it was like him or someone else, but like, it, it's funny because, um, it it's just like when you have that mentality of like, it's like, I think so many people are just so afraid to make a mistake, but when you have the mentality of like, you're eventually gonna make a mistake, you still gotta learn from it, but you are eventually going to make a mistake. Yeah. You might make a big mistake. Like that to me is freeing. It's like, okay, I at least can make one take down the production server at least once. Right. And not completely lose my job. That's not a goal. I'm not saying that should be your goal. Right. But it, it completely changes your mindset about getting stumped, making mistakes and like how you validate whether like you're progressing as a software engineer based on you getting stuck or making a mistake, you know,

Ludo Fourrage:

Yeah. Oh, totally.

Don Hansen:

It's um, I'll have to post a meme and the discord server if I can find it, but, um, okay. I remember seeing that one. Yeah. Did you? It was a good one. All right. So let's, let's do two, two more. Okay. Things that prevent developers from getting a job.

Ludo Fourrage:

It went that fast. Yeah. Hasn't I hasn't it. Yeah. Okay. So I think one that's super important and, and people say it over and over again, and it's so true. You have to build something that is your own. The real learning happens when you are trying to apply what you, I would say, academic, what you've just academically learned through, you know, lessons, exercises into something that's, you know, the wild west and that's your own stuff. And I would say any student, any aspiring developer should think of themselves as entrepreneur that are trying to ship a product. I love that doesn't mean it doesn't mean you're gonna do it. It doesn't mean that's your end goal. Think in those terms, because you're gonna wanna find a, a, a product, a website to mobile app. And by the way, it doesn't matter if it's been done before, right. The point is not, you know, being unique or, you know, spending hours trying to find the right idea. And I've been stuck myself. Like I would like, I'm never gonna have an idea. That's so unique that, you know, people are gonna care. Um, you don't, you don't look for a project that nobody has done before. You just look for a project that you can call your own and where you are gonna have enough background and, and insights to really push it really far. Right. So you, you can think of, you know, the next 20 features that you're gonna add to that project, to that project. And that's gonna be. Your your main goal to really implement those features at the pace that's gonna be yours, but really, and everybody says that that's when learning happened. It's when you know, you're gonna think of a feature and you're gonna be like, Hmm, how am I supposed to do that? Uh, and that's when you're gonna spend, you know, our, our words might be looking the web, uh, maybe finding a library, finding an algorithm that someone has come before C, C, C, and that process of just discovering how you're gonna implement the future and then starting to do it and then stumbling and then fixing it that's through learning. So if you are learning, you know, on your own or through a coding boot camp, and you haven't yet invested time in having your own project, you're really, really missing on something.

Don Hansen:

I like that. Treat yourself as an entrepreneur. Building out a product and you don't have to go the entrepreneur route to be able to do that. It's like, you're talking about the entrepreneur. My it's literally like to a tee. That is what I preach when people are stuck on, like, what do I build? What do I build? That's gonna help me grow. What do I build? That's gonna help me be more marketable. It's it's a literally just train your, and you have to train yourself to identify problems like this. Isn't something that happens naturally for a lot of people. Like a lot of people get stuck on, well, gimme something to build, give a clone, to build, give me some template to build, because at least I don't have to be creative. I, because I can't be creative. I'm not creative enough. I'm not smart enough to think of these ideas. It's like you a hundred percent are, but you have to train your mind to do that. And so like a lot of like, if you, you talk to different founders and stuff like that, one thing that I learned is a lot of founders have like lists. They have lists next to their desk. And if they have an idea that comes in their head, they write it down immediately. They don't let it fleet. They write it down immediately, whether it's a spreadsheet or anything like that. And one thing I've learned talking to different founders is, you know, these ideas start coming more plentifully. If you, they, they consistently do that. They train themselves to do that. It's a really interesting strategy and it really taught me. It's like being creative is a skill that you can improve. It's not an innate thing. It's a skill that you can

Ludo Fourrage:

improve. I a hundred percent, uh, let me add to that. Um, being creative very often is going down a rabbit hole and, and thinking about one thing with a little bit of obsession and finding ways to make it slightly different. Let me give you an example. After Facebook video, after YouTube, after Netflix, like who would've thought that there was any innovation possible in just video sharing and then TikTok comes. And you're like, well, how is TikTok really different from any other video sharing platform? And it's very different in a very subtle way on some details. And it's a very niche area. It's not YouTube, it's not which it's TikTok. And, and so you can really go down a rabbit hole in finding a way to do something very, very different in just one aspect of it. Uh, let me take an example. You are, you know, you are working, uh, in a hotel chain and you're doing front desk and you exposed every day to, you know, the reservation system. And you notice that there's something in that reservation system that doesn't exactly do what you think it should be doing. That's your idea. Mm-hmm and you're gonna go down on that rabbit hole. You're gonna push that concept, narrow that, that niche in away. To the maximum and you'll be, you'll surprised yourself, how deep, just that change goes. Cause once you do that change, other PC is falling into play and you're like, wow. But then that means I can do that differently. I can do that differently. And so it's very much so often finding one small thing and just pushing that idea to the full extent that you get creative and it it's rooted in what you know and what your experience.

Don Hansen:

Yeah, I like that. I really like that. PE yeah. It's it's people come try to come up with a perfect idea. The number of people. Yeah. No, well, I would say I could count them on a hand, but there were people that would come to my meetup that are just like, okay. Like I literally had someone that said before I tell you my idea, you're gonna sign an NDA. And I'm like, no, I'm not . Oh my God. Yeah. And so I talk through this with them, but it's like, you know, and I need to, uh, whenever something like that comes up, I try to be as nice about it as I can. But it's like your idea, isn't unique. It's not unique. Everything has been created to some version, um, or some extent. And like, you're just creating more specific, uh, variance of quite frankly, a lot of these ideas that have already been created. And maybe I'm a little incorrect with that, but when you have that mindset, You realize it's very easy to come up with entire company ideas, entire product ideas, just with different little variations, like you said. Yeah. With that reservation system coming up with a variation of like, you wish they had this feature, but they didn't invest time into it. You litter. That's what the, I mentioned, um, the person I need to shut him out. I just forgot his name, but he would create like, um, a variation of QuickBooks. Right? Okay. It did it just a little bit differently. And I think he was even creating an extension for it. Maybe it was more of an extension than a separate. I don't know my memory's going. Uh, but it, it was just, it was very small. It was very minor. It was just simplifying things. It actually, wasn't making things more complicated, creating like these really in depth features that are like, oh, you know, people just wanted more depth in the features. He's like, no people wanted more simplicity. This is really confusing. It's like, I'm actually gonna dumb this down for a lot of people. And you know, that kind of, that solution to a lot of different problems is often the right one that people are really looking for. People feel overwhelmed all the time. Um, so it, yeah, it doesn't have to be this like super in depth variations. It's like maybe try simplifying the apps that you exactly.

Ludo Fourrage:

Yeah. Simplification is a big deal. Like when you look at Facebook today, we're trying to do so many things. It's super bloated. Right. And, and so a great company could be based on making again the Facebook, like it was 20 years ago because it will be streamlined. It will be reoptimize. To a much better user experience, right? I mean, there's a ton of things like that, uh, where you look at industries and you've looked at, you know, companies that try to address so many different markets or competitors that all of a sudden the product is no longer, you know, adequate. And so just rebuild that product the way should be, if you were to build it from scratch without all the additional, you know, fluff on top of it, let me share actually an idea that I have, and I'm not gonna ask anyone for the NDA, obviously. All right. Um, and that's something I'm serious about it. I thought about it two years ago. I've never really done it, but I think it's a good idea. And what matters is really how you're gonna execute on it. Think about how Twitter is, is, is bringing constraints to how many words you can type. Think about how Snapchat is adding constraints to how. How much you can sh you know, preserve and keep, uh, the, the, the messages or the features that you share. Think about now applying constraints to videos that you can watch think about a platform that will only allow a certain people of people, a certain number of people to watch a video for so many minutes, for so many times, like I'm sending you a link down for video. You can only watch once you can only share once. And if you watch it, you only have one minute to watch it, meaning you cannot pause it. How many, maybe you can pause it just once that's an idea, like what happens all of a sudden, if you were to create constraints around just watching videos, like, is it, is it even an interesting scenario, but anyway, that's, we are out of top. It's not the scope of the per the, the, the thing, but I thought it was an interesting kind of idea. And maybe someone is gonna do something with it. I DT know.

Don Hansen:

Maybe someone will, now that you toss it out, that that is interesting. Um, it's I would be very interested to see the psychology that comes from it, how the comments look, how people interact with it. Um, and you could even. You could even showcase, like you could sell this data to marketers, you could literally showcase like, okay. But if someone did put like an external link to one of their products, it's like this video was so focused, it was so exclusive because then it shut it off to the rest of users. Now, like I increased my conversion from like 5% to 15% of people actually clicked on that link and sign up for my product. Like there's a lot of like really cool stuff that you can do just by creating. Yeah. Just something that's co

Ludo Fourrage:

constraints, applying constraints to something that exists actually creates new scenarios. Right. And it's, it's really Twitters done it with text Snapchat, with, you know, messaging, but just pick anything and then apply a ton of con constraints to it. And maybe something interesting is gonna come out of it. Um, okay. Yeah.

Don Hansen:

Interesting idea. Thanks for sharing. All right. Last thing. What is the final reason you think developers stand no chance at getting a job? Do

Ludo Fourrage:

you wanna talk about, you know, the getting your first job and picking, or do you wanna go for another, another one?

Don Hansen:

The QA thing? Yeah, yeah, let's do that one.

Ludo Fourrage:

All right. So, um, and I made a post on LinkedIn recently. It was, uh, interesting to see the feedback. I believe that there's so much competition right now in the industry. And I think you've covered that as well. There's so it's getting, it's getting so hard for junior developers to get junior developer roles. It's so competition so much competition that I don't think there is a luxury anymore of refusing your first offer. And I'm really describing. You've been looking for a job during a developer job. You get an offer. And my caveat is if it's not a scam, because you're gonna get scam offer. So of course you don't wanna say yes to those. And I'll say at a caveat, if it's a minimum of 60 K uh, uh, space 60 K, and if it's a dev job, um, you should say yes, uh, you should say yes. And I, I also add to that, even if it's a testing is in the testing failed. If it's a QA job, you should say yes. And the point that I'm making is that first job is just gonna, is just there to give you CR uh, kind of a additional industry credit or, or, or experience credit. And in a year from now, you're not gonna be in the junior category anymore, even though you're still a little bit junior, but people aren't gonna look at your resume differently. Suddenly you're gonna have had experience in the industry and your second job. is gonna be where you're gonna make, you know, the play that you wanna make in terms of actual compensation, actual role, uh, career progression and everything. So that's kind of, uh, and yeah, that's, that's something I, I feel quite strongly about given the current landscape. I mean, if it was 2015, again, I would've said something different. Uh, but, but there's so much competition in the junior dev role right now that I feel like, yeah, you, you, it's hard to, to be picky.

Don Hansen:

Yeah. That's a good point. Um, I don't. I think too many people. I see this a lot on LinkedIn. I think too many people are overselling how open the end entry level market is. And I think that's inaccurate. I think we need to be a little bit more realistic. It's not that you can't get a job it's that we are currently in times where the market is very overs, saturated, and a lot of the open positions, quite frankly, that's my personal opinion. A lot of mid to senior level positions. A lot of those positions we see opening up are those. So for entry level developers, um, now it might not be the time to get picky. You don't wanna get scammed. You're right. There are offers like that. And I'm specifically think of like a lot of companies that just wanna offer you equity, no salary and a promise to fortune. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's, it's those kind of companies, I think you need to stay away from, um, if you are trying to like pay the bills. Right. Um, but. so I agree. I would say I agree so much that I think you should be willing, like I think you should negotiate, but I think you should be willing to accept a job that pays the bills and gives you a little bit a comfort where you could put some in your savings, right. And 60,000 and a lot of areas can do that. I would argue, even in Chicago, um, 60,000, it's lower to start. It depends on the language, but JavaScript, it's definitely lower to start, but given where you live, just understand your bills. I think you need really good financial planning because if you know your finances throughout, like you are a good financial planner, you can make a more educated decision on whether that's a salary you're willing to accept. And then maybe a year later move into and bump that salary way up. Because now you have credibility, you have industry experience. Um, there. Yeah. I, I would argue I'm for that. and, um, I don't, the thing is I don't hear a lot of, like, if you give me $60,000, I don't hear a lot of people rejecting that necessarily. Do you?

Ludo Fourrage:

Um, I, I see people and I think that's where we're get, we're getting into the type of role that if it's not written software engineer on it, even though coding may be involved, they're gonna refuse the position cuz they have an aspiration to really get that title. Uh, and I think that's where it becomes it can become misleading. I think there's owner and opportunity in, and we've talked about it in doing testing. Uh, I, I really do. And it's true that there is a stigma around it. I mean, no denying. People who have been doing, you know, testing there most of their career, it's gonna be harder for them to get out of testing and be, you know, in mainstream software development space. Um, but I mean, I dunno if you wanna comment on that. I mean, I have so additional arguments around that. Uh, I'll let you actually chime in on this because I think you have a slightly different point of view on it.

Don Hansen:

Sure. So I wanna share a story at my last company. We were an automation company and we basically built automation for enterprise companies for the most part. Um, you could almost think of us like a Zapier type company and it was really interesting. Yeah. Um, so what ended up happening was we opened upper roles for software engineering and. There, our system was getting so complex that a lot of, um, a lot of companies just didn't like we would have like long trainings for, to like really help people understand a lot of this like low code movement software, which is it's it, there is a lot of depth in it. There really is. And you could literally make a career off of a no code, low code movement like that, that opens up positions in the industry. I've talked about it. I think more people should be potentially open to it. Now, the reason why I'm skeptical as well is because these positions of software engineers were opened up and then, you know, people would come outta coding, boot camps and then accept a software engineering role and then come find out that they literally were doing. Like maybe, um, I don't, I don't have like a super accurate percentage, but I would estimate like five to 10 to maybe 15% of coding when they signed up to be a software engineer and they were building automations for the software. It was very internal. It's not something they could expand to, to another company necessarily. And they got stuck and sold a dream of software engineering when they weren't delivered that. And I remember having conversations with people next to me, and it's like, I saw that like whenever they would finally get like a little coding project to custom project from, um, someone else it's like, they were super excited. They're like, yeah, this is what I wanna do. And then they're back to building automations. And they, both people next to me were very kind people and they had a very positive outlook on it. But when I talked to them more in depth, they were very disappointed. They were very disappointed with where they got stuck. And so I wanna be careful. Um, even like, I guess there are like multiple aspects to this. I think we need to be careful about overselling software engineering positions, um, and then not delivering that experience to them in the, you know, I wanna explain this, the coding bootcamp territory. I, you saw my conversation with Vincent. You brought up a really good thing. People don't sign up for a coding bootcamp to become anything else, but I, I, to dive into coding, that's why they sign up. Right? And so often we get into this territory of, well, market's really tough right now. And sometimes a lot of times coding, bootcamps are under delivering. I've talked about like overall, I think the lower or the education is lower quality in the industry, given how oversaturated the market is right now. And so a lot of people are graduating coding, boot camps, and then they, you know, they are kind of told like, Hey, you know, um, you can get this QA position and it's a stepping stone into coding. And I very rarely see it as a stepping stone, cuz I've looked at thousands of LinkedIn profiles. So far, a lot of people that get into QA that are trying to get into development. Um, so many of them do not become a software engineer. I don't even remember. There probably are a few out there. I don't even remember anyone that's gone the QA role and that eventually the software engineer. Yeah, and I I've viewed so many profiles now, a lot of that kind of blurs, and maybe I'm forgetting a couple of pathways that I've seen, but my problem is it's coding boot camps and it's company selling software E engineer roles, and then delivering something entirely different. And especially when they're willing to lower the salary, because, well, you're not doing a hundred percent of coding, right? But we're giving you an opportunity into the industry. It is a, it kind of feels like a very deceptive sell and they're able to lower the salary that they have to pay those engineers or software engineers. Um, because that's the title they hold, but that they're not really software engineers. They're not doing that. So it, I, the problem I have with that is more of the deception. And I think, um, leaders of the industry and leaders of like coding boot camps need to be careful and be wary of really pushing people into those types of positions. Even if you ever get a sense that. Just one, a hundred percent wanna do coding. Does that make

Ludo Fourrage:

sense? No, that ma that it does. And anything that feels like a deception, of course there's an issue with it. Uh, uh, and so you should be, uh, worry about it and, and, and kind of asked probing questions to see if there's gonna be any level of deception. Let me share with you my perspective on, you know, the testing roles. And, um, my perspective is mostly based on what I've seen, um, uh, in the industry and, and with my personal experience at Microsoft, even though I was not a software engineer there, I kind of saw it. So Microsoft and the Googles and Amazon, they have roles, they call them S D E T software developer engineer in test back in the 2015 era, you had a one tester for every one developer, right. And, and the, the deal was. Developer will write the core code, toss it over the fence to the de to the tester who will actually apply a ton of unit tests and actually fix that code. So the tester will fix the code and ship the code. The developer will write the original code. Um, such an Adela will become the CEO of Microsoft fired bunch of software and tests because the, the developer himself or ourself was not spending enough time testing their own code. And actually most of the work was done by the tester and it was hurting the company because the whole cycle of going back and forth meant that windows, for example, only shipped every three years. And so there was a big movement that says, okay, developers also have to do their own test. So in, in the industry right now, you're gonna see the ratio of one to one going to one to 10 or one to 100. So that's one aspect it's so, and by the way, software developer in test. At Google, Microsoft, Amazon. I paid exactly the same salaries I considered part of the engineering profession. Um, now what's interesting for me about soft about testing is it comes with its on set of frameworks. And actually a lot of them are running on usually gonna use JavaScript. It's Cypress, it's cucumber. It's just mean it's mocha and selling your, and there's a ton of framework and you're in the, I mean, you know, the world of automation, automating testing is a big deal as well. Right? You wanna write the script? You wanna run the test every night or after you ship it's part of the C I C D blah, blah, blah. So there is what I'm trying to say is there's there are good testing roles. If, if the testing role includes coding includes those software testing frameworks, um, That's in my mind that that will not, that will not be any deception there because yes, it's testing, but it's coding and it's a lot of coding and it's, you know, testing software at scale and, and reproducing the test, et cetera. Uh, I will be a little bit provoctive though in, in saying if the QA role that we give you doesn't include any automation or any software development, you could see that as a huge opportunity. because if they didn't think about automating it, that means you cannot have free reign to be, you know, the best. In that role and kind of crushing it. Cause you're gonna bring in, you know, all those frameworks, you can automate the test, you're gonna do the writing, uh, and the code writing. So that could be also, you know, by say in the, in the land of the blind, the one I, uh, one, I, uh, one, I, people are, are king. If, if you are part of a group that does testing and has not yet automated everything, and that has not yet used code to automate, you are gonna, you're gonna be great. You're gonna be fantastic. Um, and then of course I think you're right. There's there are those potentially, you know, tricks and, and deception that happens when, you know, we we're setting you a position that is really not what it is. Uh, and then you just have to, you know, yeah. Evaluate the position and, and maybe, maybe you're still a reason for you to say yes, because you're gonna get that first year. You're gonna be out of there your year later and your resume is gonna look that much better. So.

Don Hansen:

Yeah, that's, that's a really good point. I think I have two things to say with that. The first I, I agree with the software engineer in test, I had a buddy that did that eventually moved to software engineer role. I think that's pretty closely aligned. And I do think that's a stepping stone. Um, but I honestly never thought of the QA position. You, you kind of gave me a different perspective. Cause initially I wanted to say like a lot of QA positions that I know it's like, they stay QA for a long time. And like, but if you are, if you have the drive to start building automations on the site, like you're getting your job done, you are starting to create an automated system. Um, that is actually fantastic. Um, that I can see as being a solution to jump into a software engineering role. Eventually, maybe not even at that company, but a lot of other companies, if you do that, you take the reins and, and. Uh, like companies want software engineers. They're gonna take that initiative like that. That's, that's a huge story to tell in the interview and you built the entire automated system from scratch, right? So that's actually PR that's a good idea. The problem I see with it is you NA you need to make a commitment. Because a lot of people that have these ambitious goals go into a QA position, they realize, okay, like first three months, I'm just overwhelmed. I'm learning so much. And I think some people set unrealistic expectations for themselves and then kind of just default to doing the minimum possible, to just do well at the job. And you know, a lot of people have families, a lot of people have, um, just different responsibilities in life. And so I would argue if you're gonna go that route, quite frankly, if you are going to go outside of the scope of your responsibilities, expect to spend more than 40 hours a week. Mm-hmm right. That's where, like, if you're an ambition, that's what I would do. That's what I have done in the past, but that's me and I have the energy for it and I have the lifestyle that can accommodate. Um, but so I would go in with that realistic expectation that you're gonna spend more hours. And if you have to drive inhibition, I think you can accomplish that. Yeah.

Ludo Fourrage:

Yeah, no, you're right. Um, because the world of testing, especially when you start to bring in those frameworks, it's complex and rich. And so if you, if you wanna be able to, you know, move around from testing to, you know, writing the code in the first place, you're gonna have to really juggle those two aspects. But there's another point of view to that, which is it is complex and rich. And I bet that it's actually your current niche in the industry that has more opportunities than the number of people applying for them. Hmm. And. And I, I, I think, yeah, I think some people may actually find that if you're specializing again, in that really high end of testing with those frameworks and you're marketing yourself that way you actually may find a job maybe easier, faster than, than everybody else, because you're now focusing on the niche. Now you have to be ready then to ask yourself, okay, am I gonna make a career out of that? Because once you're start specializing to your point, may be hard to go back to the other side. Uh, but is it a bad thing? Um, I don't know. I mean, you have to, I'll say anyone's looking and wondering, okay, what should I accept a, a, a job in, in, uh, QA or doing testing, just explore Cypress, explore cucumber, see what's involved. Look at those framework, just like you would learn, react, you know, do a, your tutorial two, and I'll tell you it's pretty involved. And it's pretty interesting. Um, so.

Don Hansen:

I think that's a good recommendation. Um, yeah, I think that's a good recommendation. I'm a big fan of automation and I'm exploring it in different capacities at the moment. Um, but yeah, I, I feel like you almost kind of changed my perspective on it. I thought I was gonna completely disagree. So I think you had a good take on it.

Ludo Fourrage:

It's a great conversation to have. So, um, and you've made great points as well.

Don Hansen:

well, And yeah, but you gave this realistic expectation of kind of where the industry is right now as well. Yeah. And I think we need to have that conversation. Um, we really do. And I think ultimately, um, I would still argue, you know, 99% of people pursuing software engineering go to coding bootcamp, et cetera. They want to get into coding. Right. Uh, well, we've talked about a lot of people that haven't really explored initially, so maybe that's not true, but the more important thing is like, it's okay. I, I do agree. It's okay to be open to different positions. It's okay. To move from software engineering, to product management. I've seen that happen and more to like front end developers that move into UX and design. I've seen that happen. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And so it's okay to be open to those opportunities and it does not hurt to explore them a little bit, even if that means having a conversation with someone in that industry, sending a message on LinkedIn or something like that. Cuz I literally just had a one on one where you know, this guy was kind of exploring what that path really was. Was it coding? Was it something else? Um, yeah. People are having those thoughts. That's a good point. All right. That's it. A lot of good points points. Oh, cool. Yeah. So, um, I really appreciate you coming on Ludo. I always have a good conversation with you. Um, let me know in the comments, if you agree or disagree at all, but, um, Ludo, shut yourself out. What do you wanna talk about?

Ludo Fourrage:

Well, first, thank you for having me. I really enjoyed the chat. Uh, it's been a pleasure, uh, to be with you. Last time was a little bit more than a year from now. Uh, awesome. I still have people still have people telling me, Hey, I, uh, I saw you with Don and that kind of made up my mind and that's why I'm here now. So, uh, no, just to say. Uh, so I run a coding boot camp called new camp. Uh, we are trying to provide the best value we can for, uh, less money than everybody else. And it's kind of our mantra trying to decrease the risk and, and that people may get into by, you know, signing up for boot camp. So if you are, uh, interested, just check us out, new cam dot go, and, um, yeah. And we hope to see you soon.

Don Hansen:

Okay. That sounds great. Um, we'll check 'em out. I'll include the links in the description, but, uh, Lu, thanks so much for coming out.

Ludo Fourrage:

This is fun. See everything. Thanks again, me just.