Feb. 14, 2022

Code Chrysalis Coding Bootcamp Review (Tokyo, Japan)


I invited 3 graduates from Code Chrysalis, a coding bootcamp in Tokyo, Japan, to share their honest and transparent experiences with the program. We went deep into the pros and cons. I loved that everyone here had fairly different opinions about what they actually liked and disliked about the program. One of my favorite parts was talking about how progressive American culture seems to be seeping into other countries. Is that a good or bad thing? Maybe it's time Americans stop trying to force their beliefs into every culture around the world. That's how I feel. What do you guys think?

Guests:
Yukimi Otagiri - https://www.linkedin.com/in/yukimi-otagiri
Michael Metcalf - https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-a-metcalf
Francis Gaudreau - https://www.linkedin.com/in/francis-gaudreau

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Transcript
Don Hansen:

Welcome back to another podcast episode where we help aspiring developers get jobs and junior developers grow. In this episode, we are going to be reviewing code Chrysalis, a coding bootcamp in Japan. Um, we're gonna dig more into it, but like usual, it's nothing but honest and transparent reviews. I'm not here to sell the programs. I'm just here to get down into the Rio reviews. So we'll go ahead and start with our intros, like normal Yukimi would you like to, you know what, a couple questions mm-hmm yes. Are you currently a software engineer or are you

Michael Metcalf:

still applying? Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yukimi Otagiri:

I, I, um, I, since last December, December

Don Hansen:

1st. Okay, cool. Yeah. Well, congrats. That's cool. Thank you. Um, what, uh, where do you come from? What was your old industry? Oh,

Yukimi Otagiri:

okay. I'm uh, I'm Japanese. And, uh, when I was a student, I studied fine art in New York. So that is why I speak little bit English. And, uh, but after I came back, I, I did do my masters in, um, at art, but, uh, you know, it's hard to make money. Okay. Fair enough. After I came back to Japan, I was, uh, working several comp companies and doing just administrators and, uh, I didn't direct my job for a long time, but, uh, I didn't think seriously changing, uh, get news care and, uh, become, uh, changing my job until pandemic happens. Mm-hmm pandemic make, made me seriously, my future. My career. So that is how I, I started running coding. Okay. But yeah, first time I studied by myself, but I didn't understand. It's a door so I started to for school and I found code. Okay.

Don Hansen:

That's awesome. Well, you got your new position. Congratulations. Thank you. All right. How about you, Michael? Right as you're taking

Michael Metcalf:

a sip. Oh yeah, thanks. It's a morning after. Oh yeah, join me. Um, let's see. Oh, what was the question? Just a quick introduction.

Don Hansen:

Well, yeah, let's actually go. Um, when did you graduate? Um, are you still in the job market and then where'd you come from?

Michael Metcalf:

Okay. Yeah, so I graduated in the middle of last June and I'm no longer in the job market. I actually have a, a different job now is like doing more it stuff like, uh, it support. Um, so I wouldn't consider myself like any longer in the. I guess web dev software engineering job market. Um, I pretty much, uh, left the job hunt, I guess you could say. Um, and before that I was doing English teaching. I was what's called an alt like assistant language teacher, uh, in Japanese public schools in a kind of rural area, about four hours away from where I live now in Yokohama. I live in Yokohama now, but I was living in a, a GE food before. Um, and I think, you know, if, if people who are watching this who are living in Japan and making a living in Japan, um, they're probably doing it through English and they're probably like experiencing this feeling of deadness and they're kind of looking for like, all right, uh, how am I going to move out of English either in Japan or when I leave Japan. And that's kind of where I was at. Um, I'm. I'm still on the fence, but I'm pretty sure like Japan, isn't going to be my forever home. That might change because currently I'm not really sure where else to go, but my idea was, um, okay. I should have some kind of a skill that I can use anywhere in the world, wherever I decide to go. And I'd heard about coding and I guess the, the concept that you could make money off of websites and the internet, uh, like web development and this kind of thing. I think that whole idea kind of, mm, I learned about that about maybe seven, eight years ago, and you know, learned about free code camp. So this has always been kicking around in the back of my mind for all these years. Um, and so, yeah, I was doing English before, uh, I started code Chrysalis. And during that time, my goal was just to pay off my student loans, just keep my head down and pay off my loans so I could get debt free. And then I saved up, uh, to make that next step through a code Chrysalis. So that's kind of where I was coming at it from. Okay. But yeah, uh, I guess I'd say it didn't really work out for me, um, which is something I'd really like to talk about because you know, you mentioned reviews and in my cohort, I think there was the 17 students and most, all of us probably. Hm. Maybe 14 of us have jobs right now. uh, after we all finished last June. Um, but my understanding is, is that code Chrysalis doesn't invite you to give a review until after you've secured a job. Mm-hmm um, so for example, like those of us who never got a job, like we never got, um, like an invite or like, Hey, could you leave a review now? I think they, when, when they ask you to leave a review, it's kinda like after everything is done, you got a job and good to go. But, um, if you don't have a job, I, from my understanding what I've seen, they don't invite, I guess, quote unquote, I won't say that, but, uh, they don't invite people who have left the job hunt and who have pretty much moved on from code Chrysalis to leave a review is my understanding.

Don Hansen:

That's a really good point. I, um, I've talked about this many times, there are many kind of sneaky ways programs. It's like it's, it's okay to get a negative review. It's it's like every company is so scared of that transparency and that's, that's an interesting, that's an interesting way. I don't actually think I've heard of, uh, programs, delaying reviews like that, but there are many other ways that programs

Michael Metcalf:

do that. Um,

Don Hansen:

okay, cool. We'll dig into that a bit. Um, how about you Francis?

Francis Gaudreau:

Well, first thank you for having me. Uh, my name is Francis I'm from Canada, but I've been living in Japan for quite some time. Uh, and it's funny that, uh, I've, I'm a similar background and Michael, I was also an English teacher in Japan and, uh, but the difference is Japan will be my forever home. So that's why I kind of like, again, the dead end job. So you wanted to find something that has a better, better prospect, but actually me. programming was just a hobby before I was doing it, because I wanted to learn how to make automated tests. So I learned Python for fun. I mean, I like tests. English test. Like I could make questions and the students can cheat on each other, things like this. Anyway. So I, I started doing things with this, but I never thought I could have a career, cuz I thought I could, you have to do like a CS degree to go into the market cuz the people that I knew. And so that's why, and then I did some like volunteering like last year and I. Kind of discovered through this, that booth camp war thing. And I that's how I joined code Chrysalis. I think I jumped the gun, but I'm, uh, I, I worked as a teacher in Japan, but back home I worked in a bank cuz I studied business administration anyway, I'm going back and forth, but yeah. So, uh, yeah, yeah. Something like this. Yeah.

Don Hansen:

What are you doing right now?

Francis Gaudreau:

I'm a, a front end developer

Don Hansen:

front end developer. Okay. I have a question for all of you. So I think so. Okay. Here's an assumption, correct me if I'm wrong. Do a lot of American, uh, people move to Chiana become an English sort of teacher to yeah. Yeah.

Francis Gaudreau:

That's the question. I'm not a American, but uh, yeah, it's easier. Yeah. Like easier this or like the military. I feel those are the two like big Americans that I meet in Japan. Okay.

Michael Metcalf:

Um, yeah. I I'd say so too. It's, it's easier to, I guess, quote unquote, get your foot in the door. Like it's easy to find a company that's willing to sponsor your visa. And I think that's kind of the key thing. You need to have someone to sponsor your visa to get into the country. And then once you have an English teaching job, it's relatively it. It's not, um, a huge ordeal to jump companies or to locate to a new city and, uh, find a different company to continue renewing your visa. Okay. So I think that's kind of the

Don Hansen:

game. Yeah. That's interesting. Do you feel like Japan values traditional education, like a college degree over something like a coding bootcamp or is it vice versa?

Michael Metcalf:

Anyone can talk by the way. Oh yeah. Sorry. I don't wanna, you're fine.

Don Hansen:

But yeah, you might as well go, Michael,

Michael Metcalf:

start off. Yeah. Sorry. Um, I, I guess, you know, Uh, coding and I guess web development is a relatively like young industry. So I think, um, I, I don't think like maybe traditional ideas of like, you know, getting a university education for web development. I don't think that's like quite taken root yet, or maybe if it even ever will. Um, I guess it all comes down to like how the companies treat, uh, graduates. You know, if a tech company really cares that you have a kind of university degree, then that might factor into it. Um, from, from things I've seen and heard on YouTube and stuff, I don't really have any evidence other than that, to believe this, but Japan seems to value computer science degrees. Like, so if, if you have a CS degree, if you have a candidate with a CS degree and one who doesn't like, they'll probably tend to favor the one with a CS degree. But again, I think it just depends on the company, which is probably a similar situation anywhere in the world, at least in this industry. I believe I'm not sure though.

Don Hansen:

Yeah. And it really comes down to, well, obviously, like who can do the job, who's a cultural fit, but also, yeah, it's usually going to only help you, but is it worth the money? That's usually like the main question in the software engineering ex uh, industry. Um, actually, uh, quick question you came me. Uh, did you find a software engineering job after the coding bootcamp? Yes.

Yukimi Otagiri:

Yes, yes, yes. Yes. Very good. So I graduated October 22nd and, uh, I immediately start look for job and, uh, I got, uh, four over five interview. Then I started work as a front end web developer December 1st. I think it was very first and I think I got a lot of job interview.

Don Hansen:

You didn't update your LinkedIn?

Yukimi Otagiri:

Um, not yet because I'm still how to say like, uh, three months. Um, I forgot the English

Francis Gaudreau:

word trial period.

Yukimi Otagiri:

Yeah. Something like, like, yeah. It's not like very engaged yet.

Don Hansen:

That makes sense. Okay. I'll probably poke and prod with questions like that. Cause I'm interested in hearing just like web development, like different cultures, so mm-hmm okay, cool. Um, so I guess you, I guess I kind of wanna start with this. I'm gonna change it up a little bit. Um, what is your favorite thing about

Michael Metcalf:

the program?

Francis Gaudreau:

Um, I'll chime in. I mean, my favorite thing was the, I mean the tech stack that they're teaching and I mean, two, I guess, and the other one that really got me to choose it was the, I mean the, the teaching method, cuz they, what they do is that a lot of the lessons and things, they're more about you figure it out yourself type of thing. They give you tools and then you try to struggle on your own, which is, I feel very reflective of the real like development job is some you're home and you're scratching your head and you doubt yourself, but that's, I think that's what they were teaching. So that's why I thought, ah, if that's actually the case, I think you'll be good. Cause, uh, yeah, so that's the positive for me. So would,

Don Hansen:

um, would that mean people. . So what happens when you get stuck for like a half an hour or an hour and you just cannot get past it? Do you have that help?

Francis Gaudreau:

Yeah. There's instructors that you can always ask for help. Uh, that's something we can come back later instructors, but yeah. Uh, okay.

Don Hansen:

Sounds good. What about you too? Favorite thing?

Michael Metcalf:

yeah, no, you

Don Hansen:

don't just talk you ki, okay.

Yukimi Otagiri:

Okay. okay. I think, uh, the best things is they, a lot bootcamp teaches Ruby, but, uh, code teaches Java script, which is really good. I think many bootcamp teaches Ruby because, uh, of the. Uh, Ruby rare is, uh, very easy and first to make a web up, but, uh, I try to study Ruby and rare is very bit, but I think very, it is very easy and first to make web up, but they make a roto fire. So it was very difficult to fix program because they make the fires a roto fire,

Don Hansen:

lot of files to manage.

Yukimi Otagiri:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but I think, yeah, and I think, and little bit old, so yeah, I, I think it better to study JavaScript because JavaScript they use like react view. Those are more, more than. . Don Hansen: Yeah. I noticed that with international education, I saw a lot of Ruby rails. Mm-hmm um, it feels like, uh, what was it? Uh, lagoon had, I think Ruby rails curriculum, and it felt very much focused on like, like you said, you can get an app up and running easily. It's easy to learn. You can get it up easily and it felt it. I think that's good for entrepreneurs. I wanna launch an app. I feel like it is especially, and then you find coding bootcamp. So focus on like product management, little bit of design UX, and you're like, they're kind of training people to build their own apps, which is, which is pretty cool with the Ruby on rails. Right. But when you do get into JavaScript, would you say JavaScript is very, um, well desired in the market in web development?

Francis Gaudreau:

Completely.

Don Hansen:

go ahead.

Michael Metcalf:

Perfect. I mean, that's awesome. Um,

Don Hansen:

okay. Interesting. I agree with everything you said about Ruby. Em, reel. Michael, how about you? What's your favorite thing?

Michael Metcalf:

Um, it probably has more to do with like the non-technical aspects of the bootcamp. Um, I, I personally have some, I don't know what to call them misgivings or maybe Hmm. Thoughts about like, how things were taught in the curriculum. Um, we'll go over that. Don't worry. Yeah. But I guess, yeah, it has a lot to do with the people. Like, I think the, a lot of the people working at code Chrysalis are really, um, you know, they're really kind, I think they really believe in their mission, um, and their mission, what, something that I would, uh, I think their mission is to through, you know, positivity and, uh, encouragement and as much support as they can give is to, um, help people make a change in their careers, in their lives for the positive, um, Yeah, I guess that'd probably be my one liner off the top of my head. Um, yeah, like there was one thing about the program that I was kind of surprised about that. I, I'm not sure if it's quite advertised on the site, but when you get in the program, you know, they're telling you about, you know, uh, you know, these are the kind of things we do, and these are the things that are available to you. Um, I don't know if she's still there, but they have someone who's pretty much, she's like a life coach and her, and I think she also functions as kind of like the HR person, maybe, uh, I can't remember exactly like what her technical role title might be, but the point of this person is that for people who are struggling like mentally or emotionally, or there is like kind of maybe some kind of human conflict that comes up in the program, she's there to kind of act as like a mediator in those kinds of things. And. You can also arrange to have like a private meeting with her, like 30 minutes, um, once a week to just kind of like vent out, you know, what's going on in your head and to talk about it. And, um, yeah, like she's, she's not like a counselor or therapist or anything, but she's just kind of there to like someone who has nothing to do with the curriculum, nothing due to the program. Just kinda like this objective outside third person who will, uh, listen to you and listen to your concerns and things that are going on in your head. Um, and you know, to just, uh, help support you and, um, I guess inject, uh, positivity and, um, yeah. Positivity support help you along. Listen to you, uh, to give you suggestions. And, you know, I. Yeah. Like if there's something you wanna bring up to, maybe anyone else like the administrator, the administration, or another student or something like she's kind of there to facilitate that and be that kind of buffer. So, um, for me of all the things that code Chrysalis lets you do an experience, which are also really great. Um, I think for me personally, that was probably the best thing outta that program, I think.

Don Hansen:

Okay. It feels like, and you know, sometimes, um, I can only pick three people to come on, but you know, I, I get messages and feedback from everyone else and um, it feels like, like the support, the positivity, the culture seemed to generally be positive. It seemed to generally be open supporting that's the, that's the feeling I got. But also I wanna dive into, um, Michael, you kind of like hinted more at like the curriculum and how things are, are taught. You wanna expand on that? You seem a little concern.

Michael Metcalf:

Yeah. Um, so of course, you know, this is just my, my personal mindset and my viewpoint. So, um, I don't want, you know, anyone watching this, I don't want that to project onto, for example, Emmi or Francis, like, just because I'm saying this doesn't mean this is what they think or anyone else. Um, but my feeling was, well, I, I guess this kind of ties into like a, how do you learn kind of a question like you as an individual, like what learning style or teaching style is best for you? Um, and I guess it kind of. It's the, I think that's kind of a deep question. It probably goes back to like how you went through your educational system, you know, even university. And what kind of assumptions did you have about those institutions and about what was supposed to happen when you go through those institutions? And then if you're approaching code Chrysalis from this mindset, you're probably expecting, you probably have a similar mindset to, you know, previous educational experiences. So in my case with, uh, you know, code Chrysalis and WebDev, I've been, you know, on YouTube forever, just like watching all these videos, there's all these like YouTube channels and podcasts and stuff about. You know, web dev and what technologies are good to learn, which ones. Yeah. Right. Um, like I'm sure that, you know, if, if your podcast, this is still relatively new podcast, isn't it? Like, how long have you doing about a year or something like that? Like if this, if your podcast had been around like two or three years ago, I'm sure I would've stumbled upon it been listening into and eating all this stuff up anyways. Uh, I'm starting to like float around, but, um, so yeah, you, depending on how you look at it, it's a positive, but to me, I kind of see it as a negative is that it code Chrysalis. You know, they, they do teach you foundational things, but I like, at least in my cohort. And that's another thing in my cohort. I feel like things in the program and curriculum get tweaked and changed and instructors even change, you know, from a cohort to cohort basis. Like my experience. Isn't gonna be 100% in line with probably EMIS or Francis's. Um, they can probably chime in with like maybe things that were done differently in their cohort, but I think overall the curriculum involves, you know, teaching fundamentals. Well, I guess that's another thing too. Even before you get to the bootcamp, you still have to do a ton of pre-course work. That's still pretty intensive before they even let even the doors. So, um, there's a lot of this kind of foundation fundamentals building. And then like, as you get further and further in the program, they kind of like loosen things up. They kind of loosen the seatbelt on you and eventually they just kind of unbuckle you and, uh, you can just do anything you want, which is, you know, kind of, um, a positive thing. There's a lot of freedom in what they allow you to do. But like in my case, I'd had it made up in my mind that I was probably gonna go back to the states where. I had heard that, you know, the react tech stack or a tech stack that utilizes react was more, um, popular for whatever reason. I just decided in my mind, all right, there's all these kinds of web technologies floating around. You could do this, you can do that. I'm gonna focus on react. Um, and so I guess, even though I didn't consciously think this, when I was going into the program, I was wanting to focus on react and they do go overreact, but then they also go over view. Um, so they kind of go back and forth with a lot of different technologies, you know, database, uh, database technologies, API technologies, um, front end technologies and frameworks. They're, they're introducing like so many different things to do the same thing to you. And maybe the idea is like, Hey, there's this one. And there's also this one there's options. But for me, , it was a little too unfocused. Now, as the program goes along, I'd say the first half of the program is more structured in terms of the lectures. Like you usually have a lecture and you usually have a clear homework assignment, but I'd say like the latter half of the program is a lot more free form in that you're doing a lot more group work and the projects get more and more free form. Like your first group project has a lot of, I guess, constraints or, um, parameters. You know, this is what you're gonna do. This is what you're working with. And then through each different group, there's more freedom given to you all to decide within the group, what technologies to use. And so, uh, again, like Francis was saying, it's probably a little more realistic, you know, where you're in a group and everyone has some kind of input. Um, but for me, I found myself kind of. Tripping and falling along back in the first half of the program, there were a lot of concepts that I just didn't understand and things that didn't click with me. Uh, meanwhile, I was wanting to focus on react, but actually in the groups later on that I got involved with the majority of people in the group were more comfortable with view. So I actually spent more time working with view, uh, than react, which I was kind of hoping I would. Um, so yeah, I guess what am I saying? Yeah, I guess the hands offness is kind of a good thing, but I think for me, in my case it was kind of a negative thing because yeah, it is kind of like a very much figure it out on your own kind of thing. Uh, again, which I'm not criticizing that in itself, but like if I'm paying for a program, I was hoping for like more directed, um, I guess. Instruction. And I think that's because I come from a background or some kind of mindset about schools and institutions where it's like, I just kind of accepted this idea that, you know, you kind of go into the school box and they tell you what to do and you come out and you're magically this thing, uh, that you went into school to do. But, uh, I think we can all say that that's not really how things work. And that was probably a huge mindset or perception, mistake, not even a mistake, just, um, it wasn't very helpful for me going into the program. I,

Don Hansen:

I think I get what you're saying. Do you mind if I summit real quick? Please please do. Yeah. So, you know, I, like I said, I reviewed a lot of coding, boot camps, and sometimes coding, boot camps can have a little bit more of an open style, especially with that second half. Now I can tell you right now, 12 weeks to learn, react and view. And it sounds like you were learning API backend. That's crunched. Like that's a lot of learning. I can see the, you shaking your head and I'm telling you, like, I. I'm not the most intelligent person. I'm an intelligent person, but like a lot. I'm just honestly, an average person that put a lot of work into coding. That's how I became a developer. Right. It takes time for things to like really sink in for most people. And so to go through, um, to go through this program and learn like react is tough alone, like views a simpler version, right. In my opinion, react is it's, it's hard. And like, there are so many people, so many aspiring developers that I talk to that would kind of go through a lot of react content with coding, boot camps, but a lot of coding, boot camps kind of brush over it, or they try to expand that knowledge too much. They wanna teach angular. They wanna teach you. And they're trying to crunch it in this like 12 weeks. It's like, then when I really test or react knowledge, they don't know a lot. They really don't. They don't know what's happening under the hood when bugs happen. Um, you know, even like this idea of like a sink or to state and stuff like that, like sometimes changes would happen. They didn't really understand even asynchronous behavior. They didn't really like understand JavaScript fundamentals. Well, to understand that's what state's doing. It's not a synchronous thing. And that alone can cause bugs and like trip you up when you're learning react. Um, so yeah, shoving view into that and then saying like, you can either do react or view, um, when it sounds like that knowledge was spread thin already. Um, I don't know. It, it feels like maybe they would benefit from tightening that up a little bit and becoming more

Michael Metcalf:

focused. Um, yeah, that's kinda like the paradox of it all is you're paying like a lot of money to do this 12 week program when even, you know, the instructors or at least one of the instructors made the comments like, yeah, we shouldn't, we, we should be spending way more time on this, but, but we gotta get through it. We gotta move on to the next thing. Um, you know, Uh, I believe anyone can learn this stuff, you know, like you said, you put in the time and the work and interestingly enough, you know, the thing people probably need most when learning this stuff is time. Yet you are, you know, by the nature of a bootcamp, you're paying a lot of money to not have a lot of time. And that's not including all of the other things that code Chrysalis has you doing outside of coding, um, as part of their program. So I, I guess that's like one critique I'd have, I hope I'm not coming across as like, just crapping on the program or anything because,

Don Hansen:

well, I think you've cued it more than most my guess cushioning

Michael Metcalf:

it, to be honest. Oh, okay. You're fine. But, um, what, what do you let you think of that? Right. You're fine.

Francis Gaudreau:

Um, I mean, me, I guess I had a, a different view meets really the, the culture of cold crystals that really struck me negatively. Like for me, all that. like emotional support. Like I felt it's a very American culture, like booth camp in Japan. And as a non-American I felt kind of odd, like, why is it like this type of thing? So it, for me, all of this felt just weird. Like people being like, I don't know, offended easily and like a teacher making a joke then on me and then pulling me in a room and, and apologizing. Like, I just didn't understand why I was so confused. I'm like, nah, it's okay. It's a joke. I get it. Like, it's fine. Like it, it was just kind of a weird experiment for me to, to have this like microcosm of American culture in Japan. Um, but uh, for me program wise, I mean, I, I do agree that, but in the end, even if we spend two weeks on react, it's not enough. So that's why I understand might as well just be exposed to both. And then on your own. More look into it. If you're interested, cuz in the end, you'll learn more in your first month of job than the three months of the booth camp. I think so that's what I felt. So, um, yeah, the booth camp, it's a way to like kind of solidify certain skills and then you'll be able to like do coding challenges let's say. And, but the essential of your like basic learning, I think you'll do more on the job, but uh, yeah, the curriculum for me, I thought it was fine. It was a little all over the place. Like there was even a week that they're like pick a tech and do whatever. So you can pick like a new language and learn it and do an app with it. And that was fun, but not very useful, like. Like what, like I'm taking, I don't know, C plus plus for a week. What can you do with C plus plus in a week? Right. So there's not like it's and it's like, really, you can do whatever you want. So that was fun. Like, but also just not so useful in the grand scheme of things. Uh, one of the big thing though, that wasn't mentioned, and for me maybe was a big plus was after the program, they have like a career support system. Hold up that, well,

Don Hansen:

we'll talk about that. I, no, no, you're fine. Um, cuz I wanna dig more into that, but that's good to, good to hear.

Francis Gaudreau:

Okay. Yeah. We'll we can dig into it later. Okay. So for me, the program itself was fine. Uh, my cohort, we were 17. It was a mix of Japanese and English, uh, students. So, uh, that was fine for me, but maybe challenging for others cuz not everyone spoke English or Japanese, but uh, in the end. Yeah. I didn't have the problem because me I'm a very bossy person. So when I came in my team to do my final project, we used a text tech that I wanted. So I was lucky that they let me do what I wanted. But uh, yeah, I can see why, if you're in a team that everyone wants to use something different, it's a little troublesome, but. In the end, I don't know. In general it was positive like curriculum wise and what we made and it's more the, the, I call it the, the fluff, the fluff around it. That was a little like hit and this for me and most of my, uh, non-American, uh, classmates . Don Hansen: Okay. Interesting. Um, what are your thoughts? You came?

Yukimi Otagiri:

It was amazing for me. So it's like 12 weeks, 12, 12 weeks program. And I think after five week or a six week, they have a midterm assessment. So I struggled a lot. I, I, I was the most struggled person in the cohort and after five. So after I took the midterm assessment and I failed. And because I struggled a lot. I studied a lot, but so many things I have to run. So coder is moving me to next cohort. So I studied it again. Then I understand better. And I took to the midterm assessment again, the next cohort. And I passed and I, I could graduate. I think it amazing. And, uh, the school system is good. Um, right now I'm, uh, not using react or view. I use jungle framework and the Python, no Java script at all, but still I use every. I for my work, I use all marriage from code Aries. I'm still running actually. I forgot how to use react and view.

Don Hansen:

Okay.

Michael Metcalf:

Yeah. Yeah. Um,

Don Hansen:

okay. Let me

Michael Metcalf:

think. So

Don Hansen:

okay. First of all, I like, um, Michael, I like that you and Francis like, like the opposite parts, um, that is really interesting.

Michael Metcalf:

Yeah. And I, I do agree with Francis about like, um, like I see what he means about the, the, I guess, microcosm of American culture, cuz we had a lot of people from different countries in my cohort as well. And like, you know, in, in our discord chat room, like hearing their reactions to things that would be said and done, uh, in the, um, in classes or whatever is like really interesting as. It, it, it was really like refreshing actually, but, um, uh, yeah. Yeah. That's a good point to make. It is kind of like this weird, um, I don't know. I guess I'll use the word progressive. It's like, it's a very like progressive chunk of like, I don't know, maybe Silicon valley, high tech culture in Japan, I guess I never thought about it at first, but it is a very like, Americanized viewpoint

Don Hansen:

and that's, um, God, we could get into like, uh, so much depth about, um, just Silicon valley culture being introduced. Right. Um, and some people love it. Some people hate it. That just that's the fact of it. And so there is this, I, I am under, this is my personal opinion. I'm under the boat that, um, there is a lot of sensitivity in the tech culture. And, um, I think that we need to, yeah. Sometimes like the fact that your instructor made a joke, um, and like pulled you aside to apologize. I, I feel. Everyone's so afraid to like, say the wrong thing and just like, completely like demolish a relationship and you have to understand like, human relationships are stronger than that. Like, they probably already screened everyone out. Right. They probably already wanted friendly people and not people that are just like completely trash in others and like putting others down. Right. And so you go into a program like this, it's like, it's okay to kind of let people step on each other's toes a little bit and figure it out and, and kind of talk through it and figure out the personality before, like, um, before you like jump to conclusions on like, you completely offended them or like you, I don't know. You're just oblivious to, I don't know, like sometimes. Relationships and T need to have some longevity and you figure out the other person. Um, and if you wanna be cautious, you know, just be incredibly kind and, um, just don't push boundaries right away. But like, there is this notion of kind of like sensitivity and like in my developer positions too, some more, a little bit more open and honest and candid. It's like, we just told each other what we thought we didn't get offended. And we built strong relationships from that. Like, and we, you know, we told jokes and everything, and if we crossed a boundary, you know, we apologize if we offended someone, but sometimes I see like people like really tiptoeing and culture and like really tiptoeing, no one builds strong relationships. Like it's all kind of like, you're just trying to say the right things. And so is scared to offend people. It's like, I see a lot of, uh, people just like, not really having real conversations with each other and sometimes that like Silicon valley, um, I mean, like I said, I could do an entire episode about that, but. What I'm trying to say is, um, that progressive culture in tech, it, it is kind of weird. And I do, I, I think what I find really weird about it is this coding bootcamp in Japan, I'm not totally fined with American culture, like really being injected into Japan that strongly, and I've heard stories like that. Um, and I wonder, I don't, it kind of makes me wonder, like what the culture is in like web development as a software engineer in Japan. Has that been Americanized has Silicon valley like really injected that culture in Japan? Maybe that's a topic of its own, but, um, I don't know. I'm just, I'm thinking through this. That's, that's just an interesting point that you brought out, so maybe some people would enjoy it. Maybe some people wouldn't. Yeah. any, any thoughts about that? Cause I, I think it's a really interesting part that you guys brought up.

Michael Metcalf:

if my, my, my, my, that the knee jerk cynical side of me says, it's very good for marketing. And, um, you know, I guess just, um, I, I think there's a marketing benefit, but I also do think that, you know, the, the people really do want to care about people and they really are, um, accommodating and understanding. Um, and yeah, I guess that's what I'll say about that. I'm, I'm kind of curious about like, what CHEI thinks, because my understanding was, you know, when you're, when you're in a cohort, so let's say a cohort lasts like 12 weeks. So when you come in, when you start your cohort, the cohort before you is like starting their like seventh week, they're already halfway through. So there's this kind of overlap between cohorts at any given time. And I remember when I came into my cohort, the cohort before me was like halfway through, it was much smaller and it, you know, like Francis's cohort was a mix of Japanese and English. Um, but I remember seeing that the Japanese students had a Japanese teacher and they received their instruction in Japanese. And so I'm curious, like from Yuki's point of view, mm-hmm, like, were you taught from a Japanese instructor and like within the Japanese. Classes and the students, was that more of like, did you feel like the culture and the instruction style was more Japanese or did you feel like the, we took the English American. Oh, okay. Right.

Yukimi Otagiri:

Yeah. There are no Japanese class at the, I see my, yeah, when I took the class. So

Michael Metcalf:

was, was there not like a Japanese teacher on staff at the time or

Yukimi Otagiri:

actually, yeah, there are Japanese teachers, but uh, no Japanese class. It was only English. Okay. Or,

Francis Gaudreau:

well, well mean my, my classmates. In the Japanese cohort, cuz at the end, right. The projects were all mixed in. So me, I was able to talk to the Japanese only students and to my understanding, it's pretty much a copy paste of what it is. Mm. Uh, like we were always finishing pretty much at the same time for lessons. Uh, I mean, it's, again, it's just a little more like it's a little harder when you're in projects with some students that only speak English or only speak Japanese, but beside this, it really feels like it's the same. Uh, for me at my time, both of the teachers were pretty solid. Uh, so I was pretty like happy, I think one better than the other, but anyway, it's not do competitions, but uh, so I feel that, um, yeah, but I feel the English side will get a little more support because I think. A lot of the staff will like speak only English. Some of them some only Japanese, but like the important, like the CEO is English only and things like this. So things like this, but yeah, I felt it was fair and the same, I didn't feel like they learned more or less, so. Yeah.

Don Hansen:

Okay. Well, let's, uh, actually expand on that. Um, Yukimi and Michael, what'd you think of your instructors?

Michael Metcalf:

Um,

Yukimi Otagiri:

I think they are good. Um, but I took two cohort. So the first cohort my instructor lives in so far away. It's she, he not in Tokyo. He lives in some island near South Korea. But he's still in Japan, so he never come to school. So we had a hundred percent remote environment. So that makes for me running totally new things and something difficult to subject totally remote was so difficult for me. So I think it was part of the reason I struggled a lot. So yeah, the first teacher was not good for me, but the second teacher, he comes to school every day. So it was easy to ask him question, chatting him.

Don Hansen:

Okay. That makes sense. Okay. Sounds like in person was a better

Yukimi Otagiri:

experience for you. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. But you know, this is a pandemic time, so nobody can force instructor to come to school every day.

Don Hansen:

Okay. How about you, Michael?

Michael Metcalf:

Yeah, so Michael cohort H we had 17 students and we had three different teachers and, um, there was very clearly like, uh, the best teacher and then maybe like a middle tier teacher and then like a lower tier. Oh gosh. I, I don't wanna say anything mean or anything, but like, for example, I guess the lead teacher I'll say, um, interestingly enough was a self-taught developer who had been doing it for who had been studying web development for, I think like eight, nine, almost 10 years. So he'd been around and he was very. Confident and, you know, everyone felt confidence in him. And then, um, so yeah, I noticed, I, I was thinking about this the other day. Like sometimes I feel like wouldn't, it have been nice if maybe I had been in like some kind of smaller group with like a single teacher so that everyone could get more focused attention. And then I was thinking about, well, you know, they could have done that with a group of 17 students and they kind of did, it was like, there was, I think it was like six, six and five, where like these six students, this, you were assigned to this person as your mentor, and you had this person as your mentor and you had this person as your mentor. Uh, the group I was in, I would say was with the, what I would call the mid-tier teacher. But during lectures, all three teachers would kind of take turns, teaching the lesson and, um, , you know, I was, I was wondering like, well, why they had us all in, in one big group taking instruction from the three different teachers, instead of breaking us down, like they had into the smaller groups and having us receive instruction only from that one teacher. Um, and I guess thinking on it now, I think it's because the quality of the teachers was different. Like if you did split up the whole class into groups, this group that might get assigned the low, low tier teacher to receive only instruction from them, um, would not have benefited as much as, you know, the group that got assigned to the, the lead teacher, I'll say. And so basically, um, I guess the best thing they could have done is like try and distribute all of the teachers. Teachings as equal as they could among all the students and have everybody, uh, take the instruction together. Um, but yeah, so I guess there was like, um, competence difference between the teachers, which I, I think is, you know, natural in any case, you know, if you have someone who's been doing it for a long time, they're just gonna be more experienced to know things. Um, and you know, they would deliver the lecture in the morning and then usually, you know, you're sent off to do your assignment for the day or whatever. And, uh, yeah, if you have trouble, there's like a slack channel and you can ask questions. Um, but yeah, I feel like teachers were mostly hands off. Like if you, if you requested like personal assistance or something, you could get it, but I usually didn't do that. And I. Didn't have much like one on one instruction from a teacher, it was just kinda like I was in the pool with everybody else during the lectures. And we would get a certain quality of teaching on the lecture, depending on which one of the teachers was teaching it. Um, and there'd also be like a demonstration of the concept that they were going over. Like if, if we were learning APIs, you know, they'd, you'd watch like a, a video and then there would be like a code demonstration. But, uh, there were many times in my cohort where even the instructor led code demonstration wouldn't even get finished because other students would ask questions. And so it kind of get derailed into this QA session. And then, you know, because time, time, time, um, Hey, we just gotta get on the assignment. Um, I'll post the code over here. If you have questions you can ask, but, um, you know, I feel like, Hmm. Yeah, I think the instructors were good, but again, in my case, in my cohort, uh, maybe time management and management of how the classes were run could have been a little better or maybe a little more uniform and tight between all of the teachers. Uh, because you know, the thing I'm craving most is that directed instruction from a teacher, a professional, someone who is supposed to be my mentor, but a lot of times that felt like it got cut short or short changed. Um, that's my long answer to your short question. Yeah.

Francis Gaudreau:

Could, could I chime in to expand a little more on go for yeah. Uh, me, I, I agree everything you said, but actually it's maybe something a little more outside of this. It's one of the big red flags I feel of that I heard from booth camps is booth camps that hire their old students as teachers and. that was one thing that I was looking and I hoped that it wasn't like this encode Chrysalis. And when I started to like check different boot camps, I asked, well, how about the teachers? Are they like experience? Like, do they have experience in the work field? And they said, oh yeah, yeah, no problem. And big surprise. I come in and they're all ex students like the, I know who you're talking, uh, about Michael and him. He joined in after my cohort. So all of my teachers were old students. So this is kind of pretty bad. And the mid-tier teachers are all ex students. Uh, I was lucky one of the ex students was amazing. So he was a great mentor and student, I mean, I've asked my company to hire him and he works with me now. So that's how much I, he left a good impression on me. So, um, but. None of them had actual experience. They were just like hungry to learn and they were able to share that passion with us, but it would've been nice for my cohort, cuz me it's been a year exactly a year that I did finished code Chrysalis. So I didn't have any of those. Like, like how do you say hardened? Uh, and uh, like BA battle hardened, like developer that I've been doing it for 10 years. So, uh, that was definitely a big red flag that kind of made me doubt, uh, crap. I wasted that much money. I'm gonna just learn from people who never worked in the field, but it didn't work out this way. I stayed positive in the end, but in the end, you know, you're always freaking out because you spent so much money, so you wanna make sure you get, uh, yeah, but. but the thing is that the teachers do change a lot. Like the two of the teachers that were teaching me are not even working there and it's been a year only anymore. So that's also kind of,

Don Hansen:

why do you think that is,

Yukimi Otagiri:

um, that Saturdays girl salary is

Francis Gaudreau:

grow? Yeah, salary it's mid, mid tier, but for me, both of my teachers, they were like, uh, very hungry to learn more. And I think they, before they were like teacher engineers. So they were also like helping, developing their websites and their programs and stuff. But I think they switched to no code. So they're just using like hops up CMS to do everything. So because of this, I think it turned the two of them down and they started looking elsewhere and that's when I grabbed my teacher.

Don Hansen:

that's interesting. That's really interesting. Let me think so big advocate for teachers having experience in the industry. It makes a big difference. Mm-hmm but on the flip side, they also like teaching is a skill in itself where you need to give your software engineers time to like really pick that up and it can help to have gone through the previous curriculum. I would argue, and I've seen this software engineering experience. Um, even if you have to pull someone outside of the coding bootcamp, that wasn't an alumni usually ends up benefiting that instructor and the students more. Um, so it's like, I don't like you can, you can be a good enough teacher where that experience won't hurt. That lack of experience won't hurt you much, but usually good strong quality instruction from coding. Bootcamps comes from software engineers that have experience. You can, in my opinion, like it can, you, you can give feedback and people. Generally seem to be able to pick up teaching pretty well soft skills sometimes, and being able to deliver feedback effectively, time management, like they're all like skills and that's another thing, time management in itself, that's, that's really important and that's kind of hard to teach. Sometimes a lot of people bring bad time management skills to their curriculum and teaching, and that that can affect the whole, you know, curriculum. Well, not the curriculum, but like the teaching, the courses, the lessons a lot more than you think. And, um, that's where I'd argue that open ended Q and a that I kept turning into. I know a lot of people would be frustrated with that. Um, so I, I can empathize with that. So again, like that's something, maybe they can work on work on that time management. I would argue. It's a really good thing to really focus in and then maybe an, uh, answer questions afterwards. Like you have to kind of, most coding, boot camps will dedicate time afterwards. They might answer a few questions, but if it's getting off the rails, it's like, Hey, you know, we gotta finish this let's we have time dedicated to answer it afterwards. But it, that goes into like, well, honestly, 12 weeks, they're trying to cram a lot. I don't even know how they're gonna dedicate that time. It feels like they're, I don't know. It feels like they're really trying to teach a lot. So I'm just thinking through this. Um, I feel like I have a good, good sense of your experiences. I really do. And I could elaborate a lot more, but I wanna dive into specifically career services, France. I promised you, we bring it back up. Career services is really important and it's, you know, like you're learning, coding, you're learning. So you're growing as a software engineer. and you're also becoming really good at the job search. It's an entirely separate skill. It really helps to have a lot of support with that. Um, and it's, it's hard. A lot of people struggle with that. So let's talk about career services. What do you think about it?

Francis Gaudreau:

I'll start, I guess. So, um, me career support was one of the thing that maybe sold me the bootcamp, cuz me, I really wanted to make that career switch. It was very important to me. So I went guns blazing. I'm gonna get rejected 5 million times. I don't care. I'm gonna. Do it. And the, the program director that was with me, like the one that supported the career support director, she was so supportive. And basically she's give, she'll give you as much support as you ask her. So if I message her every day, she'll reply to me every day. If we're just joining once a week, our like, meeting to like keep track of what's going on, it's gonna be once a week. So it's really, you can get as much as you. Ask them to give you. And that was great. Uh, for me, the job hunting process was of course grueling and painful, like everyone. But I had her, I had other people of my cohort that I got a lot of support from, and I got rejected so many times and maybe that's something that people wants to hear. I got rejected so many times I got a lot of interviews. Uh, you, you screwed them up. Some interviews, you do them, you know, you can't get the job, but you want to have the interview practice and it's okay. I think it's part of the fun. Um, and yeah, the career support for me was really good. Um, and the person that, uh, provided it to me is still like for me, someone that really helped me into my, uh, whole job search process. So, uh, yeah. I'm curious to hear the other two. What, what did you experience with this?

Yukimi Otagiri:

Very good, actually. Yeah. I agree with you. We, I had a like 30 minutes, 30 minutes advice, advice, time per week with the counselor. And so every week she advise me, okay, what should I do this week? And I, I followed, I, I followed her advice and I apply, apply job. And I got some, uh, interviews then I think the most favorite things about career at advisor at code is well, Saturday negotiation for me, it. So difficult demand. I wanna have, I don't have money cause everybody likes money. Right? Mm-hmm I wanna get this much money, but it's so difficult to do that. So I think, yeah, my advisor gave me really good advice for salary negotiation and during fi looking for a job, I communicate with her every day with slack. That also helped me to find a job

Don Hansen:

in Japan. Is salary negotiation frowned upon?

Yukimi Otagiri:

I think it, uh, depends on company.

Michael Metcalf:

Okay.

Don Hansen:

All right. I was just curious. Cool. Mm-hmm how about you? What's your opinion on

Michael Metcalf:

career services? Yeah, no, I totally agree with everything, uh, Francis and Yukimi said like, looking back on it now, all right. Probably the whole point of doing any of this code Chrysalis, any bootcamp, like going on this endeavor, the key is getting a job, like for forget everything else. That's the point? Are you getting a job? Are you not getting a job? And like looking back at it, everything during the 12 weeks, all the curriculum, all of this, all the projects, all of that, um, almost seems I, I don't want to quite fully say like unimportant, but compared to like the, the critical element of job support at the very end, when it's like, all right, it's all over now. It's like boots on the ground. Go, go, go get it. Um, the support was amazing. Um, yeah, I'm. Uh, I don't, I don't know who everyone had on support, their support team. Isn't that huge. I think right now they have like two people on the support team, but, uh, yeah, my support advisor was great, extremely positive and encouraging. And um, yeah, I guess another thing to mention too, is that the bootcamp does take into account like your background and your skills, you know, so for example, in Japan, if you have like maybe, um, a high Japanese language, skill or certification, uh, and a Japanese company comes to code Chrysalis and they're like, Hey, we're looking for a graduate from your school. Do you have anyone? You know, we might be interested in, uh, you know, they'll tap you on the shoulder. They're like, Hey, You know, you're studying robotics, there's this robotics company looking for someone, would you be interested in arranging an interview, this kind of a thing. So support also does that they'll look at your personal strengths and this kind of thing. And if a company happens to come along, that might be a good fit for you. They'll try and facilitate a connection there. Um, yeah. Code Chrysalis is very much, I don't know. Almost like, um, it, it kind of builds up. It gets this excitement going and you're getting to the end of the program and it's very much like a, a strike while the iron is hot. It's like, all right, you're graduated. Job hunt, go. I want like 40 applications out this week and we're gonna keep it up. We're gonna keep on track. And, um, once that handoff happens between the time you graduate and then the time when you're in the mad max world of the job hunt , I don't know, just mad max pops in my head, cuz it just feels like this endless apocalypse of like, maybe you'll find a drink of water somewhere or something. It's like, you know, you just gotta get that first drink of water. Like the support system that they have in place is excellent for just keeping you going, as long as you want to go, like they're, they're there for you. And even after you get a first job, like you can still come back to code Chrysalis for like, you know, help with negotiations, you know, for example and things like that. Um, so yeah, like I've nothing but positive things to say about the support team during the last part of the program, there is kind of like, um, there are sessions that talk about the job hunt and you write your CV and your resume and they have it checked. Uh, I don't know how particular this is to my situation, but the, the people in the support program come from an HR background, not necessarily a software background, so they have a lot of experience with resumes and they will give you advice based on their experience. But during my support phase, um, my, I guess, support counselor, whoever you want, however you wanna call 'em, uh, asked if I wanted to kind of have like a one-on-one session with one of the people who wrote the curriculum for code Chrysalis, way back when it first started. And I said, yeah, I'd love that. Um, and so he looked at my resume and we had this meeting and. You know, this guy's coming from a software background. I think he might have been like a formal Google developer or something, but he helped write the whole curriculum for the whole bootcamp that they're using now. And some of the advice he gave me about my resume was actually some of the points are actually completely opposite to what, you know, the HR support person had told me. So, um, not to say that you can't trust the HR support people and code Chrysalis, but understand that like there is people are coming at your resume from different viewpoints, you know? And I say, you know, if you can, well, you will get the HR advice, but if you can. Shop your resume to maybe a software developer or a professional in the industry, like try and get as many viewpoints as you can on your resume to try and Polish it up that much more.

Don Hansen:

That's good feedback. I like that. Um, and I, I would even say with my coding bootcamp, I hear that story with other coding, bootcamps, um, sometimes know the person reviewing your resume. They weren't a software engineer and it does help to get those multiple perspectives a hundred percent agree with that. Um, okay. Let's wrap it up with this final thing. Um, Yukimi will start with you. What is one thing you would want the program to improve with constructive feedback?

Michael Metcalf:

Mm. Um, let think about that. Can you skip to who else? Um, I guess, um, for, for me the thing I felt like I was really craving. And the thing that I, um, missed out on was like maybe more one on one time with an instructor going over, maybe some kind of code review, even if it's just like 30 minutes or something like once a week or even once every two weeks now, in all fairness code Chrysalis does let you know that like at any time you can request to be audited on your performance so far, but it has to come from you. And it's a thing that you set off on the side. So there, there is that. So maybe I'm not being completely fair in my critique, but, um, and again, when you have as many students as like up to 17, You know, that could be a logistics problem. Again, there's zero time. There's just not enough time really to give most of the stuff they're already doing the justice it needs. Um, but yeah, like maybe something that was more structured, you know, like in the support, like, I think it's mandatory. Like you have to meet every week with your advisor. Like maybe something like that on the code review side of things while you're actually going through the curriculum. Uh, if anything, like for me that would've helped boost my own confidence in myself, um, which I think was my biggest problem, I guess, before, and even after the bootcamp was like, I didn't, I had zero confidence in my skills at the time. Okay. Um, but yeah, that's good feedback.

Francis Gaudreau:

Um, for me, the feedback would be, I guess,

Michael Metcalf:

Just,

Francis Gaudreau:

I guess, trying to get instructors, like it's okay that they did the booth camp, but they would've need to be on the job market. Then you try to bring them back type of thing. That looks nice. And one of the thing, and I guess it's so personal, but it's tried like me, the, the fact that they only have positive, like reviews was a very big downside for me. Like for me, when everything is five stars, there's something going wrong. Like I do not trust a five star. Nothing is really five star. Nothing is perfect. So that's why when I see five star, I thought like, I, I think they need to let people give just okay. Like me. I don't think it was terrible. I don't think it was the best. It's still a good, like seven out of 10, like. If you want to be a dev, do it, but it's not like a mind blowing experience that will change everything. No, but it's good. It's solid. So I feel they're not transparent enough and they should just be proud of being honest. Like they don't, they won't put my review cuz I did give a review, uh, of, of that to my, uh, the, the support team. And they will never put it cuz me it's like 3.5 out 3.5 stars. So it's not the perfect score, best thing ever. It's more like a genuine critique. And I think a lot of people, it will turn them off if it's the same as if you see like a bunch of product comments, it's like best thing ever, but you don't see like anything else it's kind of fishy. I don't know. Maybe I'm too negative, but I thought they should just let people give whatever their opinion and embrace the negativity and the positivity to then improve on themselves.

Don Hansen:

I like, I like how everyone is tiptoeing about like being too negative. Like my podcast is super critical. You gotta watch some other episodes. Um, all of, all of you, all this feedback is helpful. You have all been very kind and nice to the program. I promise you, but yes. Um, it's dishonest. That's exactly what it is. It's not transparent. And why do you think I have a podcast that's growing around this? It's like, this is like my main thing about doing these coding bootcamp reviews. It's like people, students do not feel like they're being delivered an honest, transparent representation to the program. And it was okay to even have like a two star review that's okay. Like the program isn't gonna be perfect for anyone right. Or everyone. And so, yeah, I, yeah, five star reviews. They don't exist. Uh, I would even argue one star reviews are probably too emotional and they don't exist. And so, um, I would take that into consideration, but, um, yeah, that's good feedback. How about you? Kimmi I know you've been, I actually wanna challenge you cuz you've said nothing but positive things. So have you come up with something?

Yukimi Otagiri:

Yes, yes, yes. One thing I want to, to fix it, it, um, code is they both instructor and the student can choose being on site or remote. And because of this situation, many people, uh, choose remote, but I think it's okay to choose remote, but I think it's better to run onsite situation. So I want to code cruisers, encourage people to come on site

Don Hansen:

and I think. Oh, sorry, go ahead. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing, it's like the quality of education, the experience is less with remote. It just almost always is. And you know, it's like a lot of people are so afraid to say it. It's like, I think a lot of people are just ready to connect with others. Again, a lot of people are ready to go in person. They're, you're paying a lot of money. This program you're paying a lot of money. And so at the very least they should be, um, hopefully they're at least, uh, dumping the price down. You shouldn't be paying nearly as much if you're remote. That's my opinion. Do they do that? No. No. Okay. So, um, yeah, a hundred percent agree with you. I think that's really good feedback. Um, cool. So I was trying to get you out early, um, but eh, kind of early. Cool. I think we can wrap up here. It's all really good feedback. I think this is gonna be a lot of helpful or very helpful for people. Did you wanna say

Michael Metcalf:

something like that? Yeah. Yeah. Before, uh, before we wrap this up, um, I I'd like to talk about maybe alternatives to people. Like if, if you're thinking about not doing a boot camp or, or I guess like in hindsight, like if I could do it all over again, you know, because I think, you know, Francis and Yukimi, I guess you both succeeded and that you, you pushed through and you got a job. But whereas me, I wonder, like if I had done things a little differently, if I might be in a different place now, like if I might actually have succeeded in getting a job, um, and so like when I was looking up or studying you, you know, how do people get into software engineering in my mind? And again, this is all on me, but in my mind, I kind of had it down to two things. You're either completely self-taught or you go to a bootcamp and that kind of helps, you know, give you a foothold in. But I think maybe a third more useful alternative that people should consider is. If you're already in the mindset that you're going to pull the trigger on spending a ton of money and sacrificing the time, time is another thing. People, I don't think, uh, take into consideration enough, like think about the time you have to spend to save up that money. Plus the three months of the bootcamp, plus the however long three, six, sometimes even nine months. Like there are graduates who have not gotten a job until like nine months after they graduated. So from a time perspective, it's a huge investment, you know, and you're converting that to money. You know, how are you going to live and eat and survive during the job hunt too? Um, so if you already have it set in your mind that you're going to pull the trigger on spending all this money, maybe consider like instead of the bootcamp for one thing, and this is something that I think would've benefited myself, uh, is that I think. not just me, but I think a lot of people probably have like confidence issues or maybe low self-esteem issues, or maybe a lot of just negative mental baggage that doesn't, that isn't going to help them when you get into the bootcamp. Um, like hearing Francis talk, I feel like in some ways you might be the opposite of me. Like, you seem like a very, like, go getter. Like you said, you're a bossy person and you're like, I'm gonna do this. And I think if you're the kind of person that has that kind of mindset, I think, um, going through code Chrysalis, you can succeed. You can push through. I think that people that do succeed in code Chrysalis that has a lot to do with it. It's the person that succeeds the, the program doesn't necessarily teach you anything that you can't learn anywhere else for free. That's another thing in the marketing I wanna touch on a lot of times, they'll see this phrase, we'll teach you how to learn. Um, To me, like all that boiled down to was read to the documentation and Google it on your own. Like there was, there was never this separate lecture where it's like, we're going to teach you the secret of how to learn. Like there is none of that. It's not all it is, is just read the documentation, primary sources and find your answers to your questions on your own. I think that was kind of BS, but, uh, yeah, like if you're the kind of go getter, positive person and you're determined you're gonna do this, I think, you know, code Chrysalis can really help you along. You'll probably be fine. On the other hand, if you are maybe like a pessimistic person, if you have low self-esteem, if you struggle a lot with negative self talk, like if it's something that feels like a wall inside of your mind and your heart, that just seems to like stop you all the time. You know, maybe if you're, if you suspect you might be suffering from depression or whatever, instead of spending all this money on a boot camp, Maybe. So code Chrysalis costs like a little over 1.3 million yen, which translates to a little under $12,000, let's say $12,000 instead of spending $12,000 on this bootcamp program, which, you know, education wise at best, you know, at best, you know, depending on what kind of teacher you're gonna get in the teacher lottery instead of spending $12,000 on that. And three months of your life, maybe take a portion of that money again, just for illustration's sake. Let's cut it in half. What if you spent $6,000 investing in getting whatever help you think you need, maybe you need to go to counseling sessions. Maybe you need to go to therapy sessions. Maybe you need to buy some books on. Mindfulness or meditation or whatever, like whatever healing you think you might need to get your mind into a healthier place to tackle on the huge task of learning a new skill and transitioning into a new career. Maybe invest half of this bootcamp money into that into your, into yourself. Cuz I think at the end of the day, that's that's really going to make or break people. It's like your own mental or spiritual, emotional, whatever makeup you have at the time. And then maybe take the other half of that money and straight up. Look for mentors. Like someone that you pay one on one, you know, just once a week, even to maybe guide you along, give you a task, like, Hey, by next week, do this and we'll go over your code. And then, oh, you know, maybe instead of this, do this, um, I think that would be way, way more effective. Even if you have to pay that mentor, like two, three, I don't know, $400 for one session compared to like just dumping $12,000 into a boot camp where it just kind of feels like you're in this firing line and they just fire a shotgun at all of you. And like, eh, maybe something will stick, maybe something won't I think that might be like a more effective alternative in short, I would suggest, you know, if you're on the fence about the bootcamp thing, do some deep, serious self-reflection, um, and invest some of that money into helping yourself like healing yourself and then the other into. A mentor, like someone who is just for you, one on one. Um, because yeah, I think even for $6,000, at $300 for once a week for a mentor, you'll probably get way, way more quality instruction and learning and confidence than what a bootcamp can probably offer you. Um, and you know, even a mentor can probably just as well give you like job support and advice, especially if there's someone who spent in the industry and knows what they're talking about. Uh, I kind of had that revelation during my support, uh, process. When I had that one on one meeting with the former, I think you might have been a former Google developer. It's like that one hour I spent with that guy, just the way we talked about things and the clear, concise advice he gave about my projects, my GitHub, I was like, holy crap. If I had given this guy $13,000 or $12,000. Completely different. So consider that alternative as well. You know, you can do this, you can do this all free. Um, you know, self-taught all this stuff is for free on the internet code. Chrysalis has no secret that they're going to teach you just cuz you bought into there's, nothing like that. Um, or, you know, yeah. Do a boot camp. There's tons of benefits there. You know, the, the people, the social benefits, the networking, um, but also this third alternative, if you're already ready to pull the trigger on this, you know, why not just think of different ways to use $12,000 or however much money you're thinking of spending on a boot camp and seriously like reflect on yourself and maybe focus it more on yourself instead of giving it to an institution, expecting them to somehow magically turn you into this thing that you're you think you want to become. Sorry. I took up a lot of time with that, but I, that was something I really wanted to, it's been on my mind a lot.

Don Hansen:

Let's um, real quick Francis, then we gotta wrap it up.

Francis Gaudreau:

Yeah. Yeah. Click, click, click. So, uh, I completely agree with you, uh, different perspective. So I agree with you on the fact that, uh, yeah, it's good to, uh, like if you're a very negative person, it'll be super hard for you to find a job. People in my cohort that are negative and don't think that they're good enough. They still are job hunting or stop the job hunt, cuz it's so hard, completely agree. And the other part is for me, classroom environment is the best environment to learn. I like to be in competition with others. So, uh, I feel, uh, a one on one with a mentor would bring a very little to some people like me. So I think the classroom, I, I completely see that. It's good for you. And for me, I think cast environment is great, cuz it's a little more structured and also there's this like battle of who can do better than the others that I love, but it's not for everyone, but that's it. Sorry Don.

Don Hansen:

all good. Yeah. I'm just trying to. Be conscientious of everyone's time, but I mean, it's a good conversation, seriously, uh, bike. I appreciate you expanding on that. I've, uh, real quick. I have a lot of self-taught developers. I watched my videos more than originally than what I started. A lot of people feel like a coding bootcamp is the only solution nowadays. Right. And I think it's important to recognize. It's like, that's why I started maybe, um, three months ago, four months ago, I started pushing self top path. Try it out first and kind of like, see where you lack. Like, do you have time management problems? Do you have, uh, do you not have confidence problems? Are you, um, a perfectionist? Are you, and like being able to self-assess a lot of that can help you get specific help in those areas. Right. And we can go into tons of like bad habits that a lot of people come into. Like, we're all human, right? None of us are perfect. All of us have bad habits and I would argue. Assessing some of those bad habits before you even go into a coding bootcamp, maybe you could address some of those habits and that coding bootcamp isn't a necessity anymore. Right. So I think that self-analysis is really important, but to give you guys your time back, um, let's go ahead and jump into our outros. Uh, so you came, if people wanted to reach out to you, maybe ask you like a question about the coding bootcamp, where could they reach you? Where, where, yeah. On social media, like if they wanted to ask additional questions, where could they reach you? Oh,

Yukimi Otagiri:

um, to

Don Hansen:

me, yeah. Like, uh, do you have a LinkedIn, uh, profile? Do you want me to just, yeah. Have

Yukimi Otagiri:

LinkedIn? I have link blinking. Sorry. I, maybe I misunderstood your question.

Don Hansen:

Yeah, no worries. No worries. Um, okay. Uh, Michael. Yeah. And I'll link your LinkedIn below I'll link. Everyone's in the description. Um, Michael, where could people reach you and anything else you wanna shout out?

Michael Metcalf:

Uh, yeah, same thing. Um, LinkedIn. Michael Metcalf. Cool. I'm here all week. All

Don Hansen:

right. How about you Francis

Francis Gaudreau:

me? Uh, it's gonna be first LinkedIn Francis Goro and, uh, MySpace skateboard, 86. So, uh, whichever is good.

Don Hansen:

Okay. Sounds good. All right, thanks everyone. I appreciate you coming out. Like I said, sick around just for a couple minutes. Um, but yeah, uh, let, let me know when the comments, I think that was like a, a good ending, especially with Michael and Francis brought up, um, Because like a lot of people are deciding even if a coding bootcamp is right for them, let alone trying to figure out the right coding bootcamp. So if you're watching on YouTube, let me know in the comments, but yeah. Michael Francis, thanks so much for coming on. See

Michael Metcalf:

everything.