Dec. 21, 2021

Eleven Fifty Academy Review


I invited on 3 graduates to review their experience with the coding bootcamp, Eleven Fifty Academy. The variety of skill levels the Cares Act brought in really highlighted the challenges of not having a strict screening process and thorough prep work. As usual, we also dove into many things like the instructors, culture, curriculum, etc. Enjoy!

Hosts and Guests:

Don Hansen (host):
Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/donthedeveloper
Website - https://www.donthedeveloper.tv

Chris Blake (guest):
Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/cblake35
Website - https://www.cblakedev.com

Sally Mellinger (guest):
Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/sallymellinger

Keisha Mitchell (guest):
Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/keisha-mitchell-6323a2150
Website - https://www.rootdir.blog

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Transcript
Don Hansen:

Welcome back to another podcast episode where we help aspiring developers get jobs and junior developers grow today. We are going to be reviewing 1150 academy and like usual, I brought on three Rio graduates to give their transparent reviews. We're gonna dig into them. And hopefully this can give you a better idea whether this coding bootcamp is going to be right for you. So like usual, we'll go ahead and start with our intros. Uh, Chris, if you would, um, let us know what program you went through. If you are, if you found a job you're currently looking for a job and what industry you came from.

Chris Blake:

So I went through the web development program, um, with 1150, um, basically, uh, in terms of the industry. Um, I came before. Uh, 1150, I've been in, very, worked in various industries. Um, I've worked in sales, I've worked in the pool industry. I've worked for tech industry as well, but it's more so hardware. I work as a technician for at and T. Um, and then, uh, to, to, I forgot you did ask one more thing as well. Um,

Don Hansen:

yeah. Did you find a job yet? Are you still looking?

Chris Blake:

Yes, I am. I actually just started, I just completed my online portfolio, so I really want, I was really adamant about completing that first before I actually started application process to kind of put my best foot forward. So I am just now starting, I haven't found a job just yet since I graduated just about almost just about a month ago. Um, but yeah.

Don Hansen:

Okay. Fair enough. Yeah, that's recent. That's really recent. Um, okay, cool. Well, thank you, Sally. How about you?

Sally Mellinger:

Yeah. Um, I. Graduated from the web development program at 1150, I was in marketing. Um, I did find a job post graduation, but it is not web development. It is still a marketing role though.

Don Hansen:

Gotcha. Did you go to the coding bootcamp to transition to professional web development?

Sally Mellinger:

Um, that's a, that's a complicated question to answer. Um, yes and no. Um, that would've been nice, but I was really looking for a way to break out of my current role. I was a writer. Um, I was a content writer and works in content marketing and I just was done writing and I couldn't seem to like get into another role, um, outside of writing. So if it didn't lead necessarily to web development, I was hoping that the skillset that I gained would at least allow me to transition into something different. So

Don Hansen:

interesting. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. There are definitely people, very few, but definitely people that signed up to coding bootcamp just to apply their tech skills, just to apply their coding skills. Um, when did you graduate?

Sally Mellinger:

I graduated, uh, about a year ago,

Don Hansen:

actually. And how long did it take you to find that new position?

Sally Mellinger:

Um, I was hunting while I was in the, in the, so like I, I quit my job, um, with no backup. Like I had limited savings and I was, you know, I was just like, I can't be a writer anymore. I've got so like, I've gotta find a way out of this. Um, so I had to job hunt while I was going through the bootcamp and I was hired, I, I got an offer with about two weeks to go before graduation. So I was actually got a job while I was still enrolled in completing the course.

Don Hansen:

Okay. Interesting. All right. Thank you. How about you, Keisha?

Keisha Mitchell:

Um, so the industry I'm coming from is actually journalism and also marketing graphic design is kind of the whole, uh, digital content creation, um, as well space, um, multimedia journalism. Um, I will actually be finishing up December 10th, our class graduates on the third. So we're this newest cohort of graduates, uh, coming out of 1150. Um, do not have a job yet, but also like Sally, I haven't been looking for a job and have just recently, like Chris finished my portfolio, um, the event version of it, obviously that's one of the projects that we have in the course, but, you know, once you get done with that, and then you kind of start to fill your skill set a little bit and, you know, have more like autonomy, um, with the frameworks and stuff like that. You always wanna go back and revisit it. So I've just gotten done and done that portion. Um, and yeah, I would say it's transitory for me. Um, So I have been interested in, um, coding and web development and computer programming for years now. I actually tried to do the self-taught route last year with zero to mastery. Um, when COVID first hit, uh, in March, they actually gave away, I think like a year of their classes or like six to eight months or something. It was something like that they had gave them, you know, gave those away for free. And I had enrolled in that and that program was awesome. It's just that it was all pre-recorded and there was no like interaction or anything. And so for me, especially with learning a new concept, because you know, these are really languages, you know what I mean? And you kind of need that immersion and you kind of need somebody speaking it back to you. At least I do anyway, um, being a linguistic person, uh, I just realized that I wasn't gonna be as successful, um, doing only that route or only starting off that route. Um, so I chose to, you know, I got the opportunity again, this year to. Do the 1150 academy and actually, you know, sit with them. And though it was virtual, um, it still was a full class of people. And, you know, we interacted with each other nine to five every day, Monday through Friday. Um, so, but what I have found is that I am thinking that I'm more interested, even though I'm glad I have the capacity of the front end and back end development. I see that my niche is more technical writing, um, which is really, really underserved in the tech community as well. So being able to, you know, mail my skillset of journalism, you know, editing all of those good things and then put that on with the usability, uh, of being able to use these frameworks as a, you know, endpoint consumer, but also as a person that would wanna help communicate better and articulate better how to use these, you know, in more plain speak, if you will, for people trying to kind of get in, you know, looking to get into tech, but are kind of put off by the tech language or, you know, the coldness of the conversation a lot of the time.

Don Hansen:

Okay. I was just checking. Um, yeah, you had a slightly unique background. I remember talking to you about that or at least digging into your LinkedIn profile. Okay. Interesting. Um, you might have said this. Um, when did you graduate in, um, yeah. When did you graduate?

Keisha Mitchell:

Well, we'll be graduating in a week, so, um, oh my God. So we've heard of that. Yeah. Yeah. That's what we, we're the, we're the most recent at the time of this recording. We are the graduating class.

Don Hansen:

that's upcoming. Yeah. I remember this. I definitely remember this. Okay. So, alright. Interesting. so we basically have two people that aren't like going strictly into web development right away. You enjoyed technical writing, um, geisha, I feel like I just have a foggy brain today. Are you, are you aiming for kind of like a web development position that like really focuses on technical writing? Or do you, are you still kind of trying to figure out whether you wanna focus on technical writing or get a coding

Keisha Mitchell:

position? Um, so I know that that's where I'm passionate at, you know, that's, that's kind of where I'm drawn energetically with knowing what I know now, like having done it, you know, and having gotten the training formally. Um, but I'm also open. I know for certain though, I don't wanna do backend development but okay. Fair enough. If it's, you know, anything front end or if it's anything, you know, that kind of, again, Pools from what I've already built, you know, as a graphic designer, freelancer editor, publisher, you know what I mean? Like all of those things I've already kind of tapped into. I would love to, you know, see those translated into the tech field, but I feel like that would best be done right now as a technical writer and kind of give me that, you know, that freedom of mobility in terms of the actual field.

Don Hansen:

Got it. Okay. Well, thanks for clarifying. I appreciate that. Um, all right. Let's dive into it. Like I said, we're gonna talk over each other. Probably like the first 10 minutes we get comfortable with it, but, um, why did you choose 1150?

Chris Blake:

Um, I guess. Kind of go first or unless you guys wanna go first, Sally? Yep. No, go ahead. You're fine. um, so it was kind of a unique situation for me. Um, I'm originally from Texas, um, before moving to Indianapolis, um, we wouldn't actually plan to move into Indianapolis. Um, we wanted to stay in Texas, but my girlfriend, we found out that we were expecting, so we wanted to be closer to family and we had family here in Indianapolis, so we decided to move here, get a little bit more help for the little one. Um, and then at that point in time, just kind of backtrack a little bit, um, prior to moving had been. I already took the Udacity Nanodegree. And this was, I would say this was maybe two years ago. So I've been kind of in interested about coding for a long time by then. And it's like, you know, I've self taught. I've taught myself, basically my CSS JavaScript and all the other things come along with it. Um, but I felt like it wasn't enough for me. It was really hard for me to keep kind of keep myself going, because I really didn't know anyone in the field. Um, all of my friends are in marketing, in finance and basically in business. Um, so it was hard to reach out to someone, especially when you're just trying to figure out if this is the right thing for. For for you. Um, so, um, when we moved to 1150, I was kind of on the market. I was kind of looking at coding boot camp. So, you know, I figured, Hey, if I'm gonna do this, I have to do this 110%. I just kinda, you know, uh, 110%, I gotta make sure do this the right way, get all the right fundamentals. Um, if there was anything I missed, but when I was teaching myself how to code, which there was a lot, um, 1150 kind of helped put all those. Together in a bundle, which basically just helped me, uh, understand a lot more in terms of the world of web development and creating web apps and whatnot. So 1150 just happened to be here when we moved. Um, okay. They were offering cares act at that time. So I was able to actually get into boot camp for free, which is, was actually a very big help. But without me knowing I applied, I didn't know that until I was basically within the application process. And that was kind of like a good surprise because I was willing to, um, take some money off the savings to kind of pursue my passion and, um, yeah. And I guess it just kind of worked out and now here I, here I am.

Don Hansen:

Okay. Really cool. All right. So kind of just in the local area, um, yeah. Mm-hmm, interesting.

Chris Blake:

So, yep. And I've, I've looked at other. Bootcamps as well. Um, but it was, I thought, honestly thought that this, I wanted to do something locally, but with COVID of course everything was virtual. So I, that kind of expanded where, what boot camps I, I was looking for. Um, but with the cares act, it was kind of almost a no brainer. Um, yeah.

Don Hansen:

Okay. Sounds good. How about you two? Why'd you, uh, why 1150

Keisha Mitchell:

you go ahead, Sally. Um,

Sally Mellinger:

I. Had actually worked for a tech company in Indianapolis. Um, and they had hired, I, I was part of the interview process and we were looking for a web developer for the marketing team and I actually interviewed an 1150 graduate. Um, and so that's how I knew about 1150. Um, we actually ended up hiring him and he was a fantastic developer. So I honestly didn't explore any other options. Um, I just knew I had known of 1150. So, um, and I, I had, um, I had some inside knowledge too, of like I had been in the indie tech community for a long time. And so I knew who Scott Jones was as well. And I knew that he backed the school. So that was kind of an influencing, um, that influenced my decision a little bit as well. Okay. . Don Hansen: Yeah.

Keisha Mitchell:

Um, so similar, I, so prior to COVID and everything like that, I had actually moved back. I'm born and raised in Indianapolis, but I had moved back after living in Atlanta for 13 years. So that's where a lot of like my journalistic operations were headquartered and the businesses that I worked at and, you know, even doing journalism on the corporate side, like that's where all of those kind of things centered around. Um, and then I had came. At the end of 2019, I mean, I'm sorry, the end of 2018, beginning of 2019. And I was going back and forth between Atlanta and Indianapolis, still doing freelance work and stuff like that. Um, but then COVID hit and I'm an asthmatic. So that kind of, uh, you know, sat me down because Indianapolis was far better about that than, you know, the alternative. So, uh, while being here, it was kind of like, okay, well now you're kind of like in a down period, you know, you're not really moving around as much as you were. What can you do that? You, you know, how else can you better yourself? You have to find something to occupy your time. And like I said, I was already looking at coding and looking at transitioning, you know, my career into other things, trying to find something that maybe even offered, you know, more security off rip, as opposed to kind of like, you know, journalism jobs, they kind of fly by night. You know, you work with different companies, you're doing different things, but unless you're a part of an agency or work for an actual bureau of some sort, you know, You're kind of like on your own all the time. So I just really wanted to figure out something for me that would still allow me to be creative. Um, but also kind of keep me cutting edge and what better than technology, you know? Um, so. car act money also came around. And my mother, who is a director of financial aid, um, and has worked in financial aid, was talking to me about car act money. And she was like, you know, Indianapolis does have money that they're offering people to go back to school for free. So it was like, why not take advantage of the address and take advantage of the time that I'm here, you know, and benefit from that. Um, but I just knew that coding would not be something that they would offer, right? Like any other type of skill, any type of whatever I was, I was not expecting to see schools. Dealt with exactly what I was looking for, which is computer programming, um, computer security. Sure. You know, something else, maybe help desk tech, you know, help desk technician, whatever the case may be, but coding. Absolutely not. So when I saw 1150 on there and then did my research, I was very pleasantly surprised because it was almost like I had struggled well twice, you know, obviously was zero to mastery offering their course for free the first time in, you know, 20, 20. And then in 2021, it's like you basically in this opportunity to go to school again for free this time in a way that's more suitable for you, you know? So it's like, I felt like that was, you know, serendipitous and I could not let that opportunity go box twice. So it was incumbent upon me to take that, you know, and, and kind of, like I said, use the opportunity to get the person to person, um, peer to peer experience with it, as opposed to, you know, just the discord video format.

Don Hansen:

Okay. All right. I think, all right. So it. . I mean, it, it sounds like it provided some flexibility and some advantages being locally. Um, and it sounds like everyone kind of did their research and, and Sally, I, I get, you know, just going off of a good experience of meeting one of the software engineers that came out of it. All right. So it gives me a little bit more of an accurate picture of why you chose the program. So let's just dive into it. Um, you know, what do you think of the program? What was your experience like?

Chris Blake:

Um, honestly, um, I had to bring a pretty good experience with 1150. Um, Kind of like what I went over earlier. I, I was self-taught developer. So prior to entering the program, I had already some coding skills. I knew, you know, basic H M L CSS JavaScript. Um, so 1150 kind of really helped me put all those things together. Um, I've worked with APIs as well before, but 1150 just kind of solidified all the fundamentals. Um, I'm trying to think of, I wanna say a negative experience with 1150, but knowing all, doing all the skills prior to attending the program really made it a lot easier for me to get through it. Um, of course the first two, the first, so basically 1150 is divided into three sections or mini sections. Um, you have the gold badge, the blue badge and the red badge. So the gold badge. Um, and I would say halfway through the blue badge was, wasn't very tough for me because a lot of it was just going over what I already knew. Um, and then the second half of blue badge, that's when things really kind of, whoa, I don't know, I don't know how to put this together. And, um, you know, the instructors, the TAs, um, they were pretty good at kind of helping be put those things together. Um, of course, as a program went on, it was a little, a lot less handholding. Um, and there's not, I, I, I can't really recall a single negative experience I've had through the program just because it, it really helped me solidify a lot of the skills that I already had. And of course its taught me also a lot things that I didn't know, I was, I really didn't know, react prior to attending the program. Um, So learning that through the program was really big. Um, I know prior to attending 1150, I was trying to apply for jobs, um, within, you know, the Indianapolis area. Um, and it was a lot of it was react and I was like, oh man, I need to learn react. And kind of 1150 did a pretty good job of kind of, uh, helping me learn that specific skill per se. Okay.

Sally Mellinger:

Yeah, my experience. Yeah. My experience was a little, um, different cuz you know, it's been a year, so I was in the program a year ago. Um, and so that was kind of like at the height of the pandemic. And um, you could tell that there were some growing pains as they were kind of transitioning to like an on-campus program to, uh, you know, really being able to accommodate a, a virtual student body. Um, So I did feel some of the growing pains in just kind of the organization. You could kind of tell like, this is, they were still trying to figure out how all of this was gonna work and flow. Um, I had not had any prior coding experience, um, minus some HTML experience, like, you know, like customizing MySpace profiles a long time ago. like, yeah, that was like the only experience that I had with HTML. So I found the, I mean, the program is intense and you are in class from nine to five and, you know, there were many late nights. Um, and there were times where I felt like I had fallen behind and, um, there, they did provide resources for, you know, Help outside of class, but even still, sometimes you were working with developers who themselves had just graduated from the program. And so, you know, sometimes it felt like I was troubleshooting with someone who was kind of like on the same level as the, at times that I couldn't really get the explanation or the clarity that I needed. Um, I will say though, that, you know, I do know that that is part of being a developer as a whole, right? Like there are gonna be projects even when you get a full time job and you're working on a, on a project, you're not always gonna have somebody to hold your hand through it and you're gonna be stuck. And so I, I know that there was a purpose for it being a little bit of a struggle, but there was some real frustration that I experienced. It, it is a very tough, is a tough

Keisha Mitchell:

program.

Don Hansen:

Do you feel like the screening process, um, that it could have been more strict to make sure you were more prepared?

Sally Mellinger:

That's a great question. Um, I don't think that it's necessarily that I, that. Wasn't prepared. Well, you know, I think that's, yeah. I maybe, maybe the, the expectation could have been set a little more or maybe, um, yeah, I'm not sure how you would do that though. Honestly, cuz I never would've wanted someone to tell me. No, we don't think you can do this. right. Like that would've taken away a big opportunity for me. Um, yeah, but I do think it's important to set that expectation that like this is a nine to five, which they do a good job of, but like is very.

Don Hansen:

It's very intense. So, and, and that's the thing. People have this misconception, um, and it's very common that, well, if you have a harder screening process, it makes the program less successful. And that's just not true because what ends up happening is, um, the program will let anyone in. And a lot of people will start falling behind. A lot of people start falling behind and two things happen either the program has to slow down to catch those people up, or those people are just left behind. They roll back into previous cohorts, they get refunds or stuff like that. And very commonly from what I'm seeing a lot, they're just getting refunds. They're just getting rolled back in old cohorts. The, the program isn't really slowing down for them. And so what you can do is just say, yes, you can do it, but coding is tough. You're just gonna have to spend a few weeks a month. Like here's some material right before you apply. Here's some material go over, like really get a solid grasp of the fundamentals. If we want you to learn HML and CSS and maybe a little Java script, we're gonna have you learn that. And it's just preparing them, it's providing those materials, which a lot of coding bootcamps do. And so that's really the solution because that also, first of all, just because you get in a program, doesn't make it accessible. It's not accessible when you dump a bunch of money and then like, you're just struggling through it the entire way. And you don't really get that experience out of it. Accessibility is providing all the resources. Students need to be able to succeed. And sometimes it does mean like saying the hard thing of like, we want you in here. You're just gonna have to spend a little bit more time, you know, preparing for this program. We want you to be successful. That's how I see like a solid success, uh, accessibility plan into these kind of programs.

Keisha Mitchell:

So I can piggyback off of what you and Sally just said a little bit, because I think that, you know, And I would say superficially, but not with like a negative connotation at all, but I think superficially that is what's offered on the outset. I mean, you are sent pre-work, um, you know, the pre-work does take about two and a half weeks to do, depending on your, you know, particular time allowances. Um, and again, your skill level coming in. Um, I think where the disconnect is in this particular scenario and I'll get into my experience in just a moment, but is that, that the pre-work, uh, Still cannot convey, you know, unless you're actually given technical assessments, which would be, that would be great because especially right now where we're at in the job market and tech, you know, tech assessments are all the way. There are gonna be a lot of technical questions, rounds of technical interviews and stuff like that. So just from a tech standpoint, you know, can you explain to me the logic, can you show me, you know, different solutions and thought plans on how you would approach this code? Can you tell me how you would start to write code out? That would be the appropriate litmus for. Is a person even mentally prepared for this type of work. I think the issue is that the pre-work that I was given, I know my class was given was more so like kind of basic walk, alongs follow through which again, because we're all of the MySpace generation, especially if we're millennials and incapacity, we've kind of been coding, you know, not as much as what the new kids are for sure, but, you know, we are that first group to have really come into contact with that. So it's, it's, this is not conversational coding and this is not casual coding, you know, and I think that the pre-work kind of presents it as, oh, just follow along with this HTML, you know, tutorial real quick or build a CSS monster real quick. And it's like, these are not the things that you would even put on your portfolio, let alone really use to gauge whether or not somebody has, again, just the malleability of mind that it takes to really be able to sit here and learn again, these frameworks and these languages. Um, so I think that. To Sally's point like coming into where we're coming into, like we're still in the pandemic. And so there's still that adjustment in that, that double Dutch of, are we going back? Are we not, are we going back? And I think that where the program is currently at is that, you know, they have been given a lot of cares, act money. There is a big push to get a lot of students in. And so now it's growth. Right? And I think that before probably where Sally was experiencing, like the growing pains of transition, I kind of got like the growing pains of growth and exponential growth at that because, you know, there are multiple classes going on now at one time where I think before, you know, historically with this, there's only been at most two or three, you know, you're talking about 40 people total graduating to, what's probably now 60, 70, and you know, 80 people, if you talk about the different numbers that are going on at the same time, and then they're still creating classes and still intaking, you know? So then I think even just. In all fairness, anybody, you know, dealing with that level when it goes from 12 to 24 to 40, in a period of six weeks, eight weeks, you know, that's a lot for any group of people to try to kind of accommodate. Um, so in my class we were, we started off at 32 people. Uh, we are currently at 16. So to your 0.9, a lot of people, you know, kind of dropped off kind of, you know, and I don't wanna say couldn't cut it because it's not really a personal flaw at all. It's just, again, without somebody really setting the expectation of this is what this is, and this is what this will mean for you, because there are different learning styles. People have educational traumas, you know, a lot of people are coming from different jobs and they're just now getting back into the job market, you know, it's all types of things that are going on. So, and the cares act program is one that its whole premise is to get the Indiana workforce working. Right? So these are not. Necessarily, technically apt people all the time that are seeing these programs and like, oh, let me sign up because I'm coming from one space trying to move into another, some people are seeing this as the way it's being marketed, which is like a new skill, like welding, or like, you know, something like that where it's kind of like a new trade basically is the way that a lot of people are kind of promoting code, you know? And it's like, it probably will one day get there, especially as again, the younger generations become more fluent with technology and stuff like that. But I think that for the working class, people in the working age, people right now, that's still a big jump, you know, mentally and motivationally. Uh, there's a, there's a huge learning curve that I think has to be appreciated and has to be accounted for. Um, because it is almost, uh, misleading in a sense to kind of advertise it as this as something that any, and everybody can do, you know? Um, so, you know, I think that there's that, um, I think that for me, There is, you know, so again, I'm a big language person and language checks, expectations and stuff like that. So I think there's this idea that when you say that a course is a foundational course, I think foundation is different than introductory. You know, so if you are someone like Chris, where, for example, we have, you know, three really strong coders in our class. One had been a software development teacher for 10 years. Another had already worked in technology. Another had already, you know, dealt with this. Um, they have the, the wherewithal to come in and start, you know, working with the set of tools, given to them and saying, okay, I know what to do from this, but there's a lot in coding that can't be implied. And it's not like one of those things where it's like, oh, well, because contextually, I told you this, you should just understand or know this, you know, it's like some people are going to need to literally be walked, you know, with the hand held hell the entire time through each. And if, you know, uh, if a program is not set up to be patient with that or to account for the diversity in. Knowledge, right? Like some people are coming in already doing this for themselves. That's a different knowledge gap than somebody that's again, looking at this for the first time saying, I'm interested in doing this. What would it take? You know? Yes. And I, right, right now, I don't think that there's, um, there's an, a adequate bridge between the two. So in a course, it's like you end up kind. Leaning heavily on both students and teachers, the, the students that already know how to do this and, and, and it's like, well, you know, that's not really fair either for them as students themselves, you know, or for students who did not come here to get taught by other students in a way, you know, I kind of, I'm looking for that teacher peer experience, you know? So I think when you say foundational learning something in five and a half times, the speed that a computer science major would learn it, or maybe a person that had been self taught would learn it organically, you know, and then feel comfortable applying to the jobs. I think it's kind of misleading in terms of when you're done with it. It's not like you're just necessarily job ready to start being a front end developer today. You know, there's still gonna be more time. And I think that that's something. A person that isn't a coding hobbyist would not understand inherently. Right. That just because you've got the certification doesn't mean like you're done now. Like you're good to go in the job field. No. Now you need to take more time to refine, reinforce, relearn, learn more. And then perhaps maybe the job that you're going to have a certain set of frameworks or a fact that you are more comfortable with. Right. But this is not like a one size fits all equation. Um, it's not, you know, foundational the way that you'll be able to just do it tomorrow after you got the certification. Like it's very introductory in the sense that if you've never done it before, you'll be introduced to a world of things that will help you get farther. Should you continue with the independent study and continue to be dedicated to it? Like on a side project, you know, type basis. And as a, you know, also you have to, you're gonna have to have some enthusiasm about it too, because if it, if it burns you out in the course with the speed that it's presented to you and kind of that, you know, Not handholding mentality towards the end of it. That could also leave a negative taste, you know, in some people's mouth and like, oh, well, I don't know if this is something for me, but it's like, no, you'll have to develop a passion for it to really wanna do it. Cuz it's not something that you can just pick up and just be fluent at, you know? Yeah.

Chris Blake:

So I kind of agree with, with kind of both, both y'all are saying, um, I do agree that the bar could have been set a little bit higher, especially for students who have never seen this before. Um, coming from my experience, if I didn't know any type of coding coming in, I probably would've been lost. like it because there's a lot of my prior experience with coding and teaching myself how to code. I mean, it's like, literally I've been teaching myself how to code a year prior to, prior to attending 1150 academy. Now it wasn't a cool year straight. It's been kind of like on and off, picking it back up, picking it back up, picking it back up. Um, but that experience alone, that was a whole year of me failing and teaching myself and trying to figure out why would I use the return keyword in a function, but it's why is it not just, you know, telling me I already have it right here? Why do I have to return it? Um, and you know, I think that's just one example. I think the, the bar could have been set a little bit higher in terms of the material sent to students beforehand. I think that would help a whole lot of students. Who's never seen any type of coding material before. Um, and, and yeah, I just, I think that would help a whole lot in terms of new students coming in,

Don Hansen:

for sure, for sure. that's a really good point. Um, so when you, when you do have cares, is, uh, state funding from Indiana specifically, right? Mm-hmm yes. Do you know if they negotiate that contract and lower the price of what the coding bootcamp actually makes? Um, per student , but they, okay. Yeah. I wouldn't expect you guys to know. Um, because, so there's a thing. Um, you know, if, if it was a negotiation and the program did kind of accept students for a lower amount, um, sure. It sounds like they do have some growing pains that they have to fix, but it can almost be a little bit honorable that they are just trying to get more people into tech and they're willing to negotiate down a little bit and make it more accessible. But if they aren't, if they're getting that full and I think they charge like. Uh, 13,500. Um, if they're getting that full amount, that's, that's a lot of money. You have to understand your audience and with Indiana. Yeah. I mean, I'm Northwest Indiana and there are very, there are a lot of people that aren't very tech savvy, and I can imagine a lot of people, even just some old friends that I knew trying to get into and become a software engineer. It's it's not like this random, um, random, extra, like, it's not like welding, it's not like a trade that you could just quickly pick up. It takes so much time. And, you know, like usually with like different certifications with different jobs, it's when you get to the end, you're qualified. Whereas you can do that with the coding bootcamp. If it's designed to like really give you time for things to solidify you, you a hundred percent, can't be prepared for a coding bootcamp, but it sounds like 1150. They probably already know it, but they have to really understand their audience and they have to. Maybe it's not extending the program where they have to pay more instructors or hire more people, because I don't really know the business side of things, but maybe it is increasing that prep time or the requirements to finally getting into the program. Maybe it is. I'm telling you when you really get those, uh, like a solid foundation down before you go into a program it's like night and day, when you compare coding boot camps, that don't care about that and do care about that. And sometimes that even means like creating pre-work that takes two months, and it sounds like a long time, but there are programs that do it very successfully and that are also really intense. And also like really, you know, uh, require a lot out of you. And so it's, it's either kind of changing the way that they're teaching these things to accommodate these varying skill levels, which is really like, if you have varying skill levels, it's really hard to keep that quality up. It's really hard to keep it up, but there are solutions to it. And so I don't know what solutions they're aiming for. My suggestion is pre-work I think that's gonna be one of the cheaper alternatives to preparing students a little bit more, but I, you know, all three of you were in the guts of this, you know, like how they teach I'm. I mean, do you have any feedback as far as like, well,

Keisha Mitchell:

yeah, for sure. I mean, I think that, you know, one of the things is that this idea of being full stack, right? I mean, you hear it everywhere, especially once you start to get into tech oh, full stack, full stack, full stack, or what's your stack or what technologies are you using? And it's like, when we are speaking about the fundamentals, you know, realistically. even a person, maybe that's not as computer savvy, you know what I mean? Really truly can if they really are focused and I feel like they can pick up HTML, you know what I mean? Within six to eight weeks and really start to be like, oh, okay. I understand this. I'm I'm doing websites. I'm seeing something, you know, you throw CSS in there. Oh, okay. You know, now I feel like, oh, okay. Maybe I can make, you know, maybe I can do a little something. Maybe I can sell these or, you know, whatever. But when you start talking about JavaScript, , you know, that's not anybody. I mean, and we're off laughing because we all do this. That's nothing to play with. As they say, that's not something that you sit down in three weeks, you know? And, and then you're given really a week and a half, two weeks in, in the course because of the way that it's time to get the fundamentals to JavaScript and build from that. And to now you're doing objects and now you're building with react and now you're building on type script. You know, it's like. I think an ideal format for boot camp would be okay, HTML six week course, almost like electives, right? Where you maybe build your own course contingent on what your goals are, you know, but maybe HTML is a six week course. You know, maybe CSS is a four to six week course. You know, maybe JavaScript is a, uh, 12 week course in itself, you know, and maybe at the end of each of these courses, you're building projects that you then see kind of like, you know, they, they vote on together, you know, and then you can start to build on each one. As you go because this idea that, oh, I spent a week and a half, or I spent 18 days on a concept and this is not even just an 1150. I mean, you'll find this, even in the school system, you know, in math class, for example, where they'll try to teach a bunch of concepts at once, as opposed to just going through each concept and giving it it's time, you know? Um, but you do. I think that's where people get left behind because it is a lot to throw out a lot of people , you know, um, especially in the age of, you know, as much has happened that has happened in the last two years. You gotta think people are coming from all different types of emotional spaces. And again, they have different motivations for some people are looking for quicker fixes than others, you know? And so again, I just think that this idea that you can be full stack at the end of three months is inherently just not true, you know, because either you're going to have. Come with some information already and have that built on which, okay, so now you had your knowledge gaps exposed, or you're gonna come with that being the information that you first got, and now you'll be sent off to go close off the knowledge gaps yourself, you know, so either way, you're kind of getting back to the self learning aspect. And I think that again, if you have passion for developing, you realize that being a lifelong learner and doing this on your own time in your free time is gonna be, that's what you're committed to for life, you know, but that takes explaining to, to, again, somebody that's looking to, you know, change their life at the end of 12 weeks.

Chris Blake:

Yeah. And I kind of kind of piggyback on that as well, to what you're saying. Uh, Keisha, I think, I think the why is really, really important when someone is trying to learn coding. um, for me, who has worked in several fields, I've always just, you know, I've always dabbled with HTML CSS, high school, even before graduating college. And you know, it just something I had fun doing. Yeah. Um, I've worked kind of, like I mentioned earlier, I've worked in three, four different industries and, you know, it would, that learning phase was always fun for me learning a new skill set. And then after three, four months or however long, it took me to learn those skill set. Everything just became stagnant. Mm-hmm and then here, come here. It comes again. Okay. This is getting boring. This is not what I expected. So I go back to coding again and then, you know, found a new job, found a new career that I thought I was gonna like, like, for example, at and T I thought I was gonna like at and T because it was technology, I had to deal with technology. Um, but then. After a couple of months, it got stagnant. So it's like, there was this phase where I just kept coming back to coding. And so at the end of the day, I had to take a step back and evaluate like, okay, I keep coming back to this one thing. Why not go put all hands on deck and actually learn this, that, that, and make this a career, because this is something that I was passionate about. This was something that I enjoyed doing, even in my free time. Like, this is something I'm a big video game guy, but. if you tell me if I'm go, gonna play some video games or if I'm gonna code, I'd be coding. Cuz that is fun for me. So I think the why is a really big factor when someone is going into a boot camp, right? Because, um, a lot of my classmates, a lot of them are just really getting, they heard about the Caris ag. They got introduced to it. Hey, it's a new skill that they thought they could learn, but they didn't really know. What coding entails. Right. And all the stuff that comes along with it, how difficult it is to learn a few concepts. Um, I've been on Java script for quite some time now, and I'm still learning new things every week. It's, it's a lifelong learning and I think that's what I love about it. And so, um, when I was going through the program, um, yeah, I knew a little bit more about JavaScript and fundamentals than my fellow classmates, but at the same time I was, I felt like I was spending a lot more time outside of class. Um, every single waking moment when I was not working my nine to five, I was coding my computer, trying to figure out something that I've. Trying to figure out for the past day or so. And this is with me with prior knowledge about coding. So I think, um, when someone has a really strong Y S and ventured into other career choices, and it, it's not really clicking for them, it becomes stagnant for myself. Um, for example, um, coding was my why that something I was passionate about passionate about something I had absolutely fun doing, even though there were days that there were times that I just, um, you know, just wanna shut my laptop off and just cuz I figured I didn't put an S on my API and stuff wasn't working. Right. It was just one letter or it was a back take that was missing. And you know, at the end of the day, whenever I figured out. Those problems. That's what gets me going to the next code to the next Latin code. So my, why I think the Y is pretty a pretty strong thing when someone's really coming to learn coding, because I think that alone will kind of sets you apart is to kind of, is this something you're really gonna put all your time to, or is this something you're just kind of testing the waters and whatnot.

Don Hansen:

Okay. Um, and Sally, I know you've been, um, pretty patient. Uh, did you wanna add anything else to what we're talking about?

Sally Mellinger:

Uh, no. Well, I do wanna, I know that we, you know, we've, we've had a lot of constructive criticism for the academy, but I, you know, I will say that, um, my experience overall. Was really good. It, it was a very good experience. And I will say that I, I credit 1150 for having incredibly caring and supportive staff there wasn't there was never a time when I like, could not get the support that I needed or that an email went unanswered or that a professor wasn't answering my question. So I do just wanna make sure that, you know, in, in the midst of all of the, the constructive criticism that, you know, there was some really positive experiences that I, that I had at 1115.

Keisha Mitchell:

Yes. Yeah.

Chris Blake:

And I think, and I do agree on data swell. Yeah. Um, the, the staff, TAs, all of 'em are awesome. All the instructors love them. Uh, I love 'em to that. Still talk to some of them to this day. Um, they're really supportive. Uh, and I think a lot of the stuff I learned, especially during blue badge and red badge was. Would've been really difficult learning on my own. They just kind of laid out the foundations. Now they were not as handholding in blue badge and red badge. Uh, for us it was more so, Hey, you need, gotta need to figure this out on your own, but whenever we had some issues and needed some help, you know, the instructors and the TAs were, were, were, were, were definitely very helpful. And I think it's, yes, there's a lot of constructive criticism going on, but like, like Sally said, it's overall a great experience and it just really helped me put everything

Keisha Mitchell:

together. Yeah, for sure.

Don Hansen:

Uh, and I would say that real quick though, and we'll get to you Keisha, but I, I wanna emphasize, like my brand is being critical, right? Constructive criticism isn't necessarily a negative thing. And my audience knows that. Of course I am always critical of these programs. So, um, to me, when I hear this constructive criticism, it's not like, oh my God, you're doing a horrible job. 1150, right? Mm-hmm , it's just like you mentioned, if they do have growing pains, if they don't get this feedback, like they're never going to improve. They have kind of a tough situation bringing in so many students. And I mm-hmm this constructive criticism is incredibly important because I've seen a lot of coding, bootcamps scale poorly. The scaling problem has not been solved perfectly and eventually like a lot of coding boot camps that do try to scale, even if it is just taking students that are getting supplemental income, um, scaling is scaling and it has not been solved in the industry in many programs. Will disappear. They'll be sold to colleges. They'll be, they'll kind of run outta business. They'll go into debt and stuff like that. So this constructive criticism, I wouldn't emphasize, it's not saying they're bad. It's just saying like, you guys obviously care about it. You care about the instructors, you had good experiences. So, you know, like really take this feedback seriously, 1150, because you want to see them succeed and help more students. Right.

Keisha Mitchell:

Exactly. And that's really, all I was gonna say is that I don't think that, you know, in the midst of the critiques that it's, you know, that the energy is that, uh, 1150 is malicious or that they are, you know, filled with mal intent because it's not them. You know, I just think that they's small, just institutional things that, as we've mentioned, like you said, it's scaling, it's growing pains. It's, you know, these are the conversations just from the people in the center of it, the end users, you know what I mean? This is just what it is, you know, but to the point about the TAs and the LA's, uh, and the instructors and everything really. Great people. I mean, I know Sally mentioned that it, you know, a lot of times, which is still the case as of this year, that you are dealing with people who have not had their first formal job yet. You know what I mean? So in a lot of ways, um, you are dealing with people who are just, you know, they're seniors to your underclassmen, you know? Um, but that's cool though, because still that kind of gives that one of the things that, um, was most moving to me from the beginning of our class in particular in gold badge was how much of a community we were as opposed to a class. You know, we really, uh, you know, are interested in and invested in helping one another, seeing one another succeed, you know, doing what it takes after hours in between hours. So the culture at 1150 is really just one that is helpful, you know, in general. Um, I just, you know, like we're all saying, there are just certainly, you know, things with, because they're also not that old, you know what I mean? I don't even think that they're five years old yet. So, um, With that being the case, you know, I mean, these are baby steps, you know, and they are growing fast. And so, yeah, like you said, I just think they're just valid points to be made, but it's, I would wanna be clear that they are not like, you know, it's not like they're, like I said, Phil with mal intent or, you know, maliciously under serving or anything like that. Yeah.

Don Hansen:

And so it's, you know, it's clear that everyone does care about, um, a lot of the instructors and staff that you interacted with. I think that can make or break an experience and that's important to recognize. Um, but yeah, as far as the, as far as the scaling, what what's probably gonna happen is, um, I don't know, reviews are a really interesting thing and how they kind of, how does coding boot camps are able to get reviews in general and what encourages students to make positive and negative reviews? Like, I feel like I've had like long live streams talking about this, but, um, the quality, when you scale like this, I do. Potentially see the quality dropping, um, if they're going to promote variety of skill levels, um, I, I guess I wanna ask this, do you feel like your, your graduation rates at your program as well as just the success of the students would increase if they included more pre-work for JavaScript specifically?

Sally Mellinger:

Uh, I would say yes. So, so coming into the program and having zero experience with JavaScript, um, I may have taken a step back and thought more about continuing on with the program. If I had sat down with JavaScript. And another thing that I also think is really important for anybody who's going into a bootcamp and, and an expectation that I think that I kind of wish had been set with me at the beginning. Is, it is a passion and it is something that you have to want to do after hours. And it's something that you have to be genuinely interested in to be successful at like to work in that field, to work in this field, to work in development, you really have to have the drive to do it all the time. Um, and so I think had I understood that and had that expectation been set. I, I don't know that I, not that I would not have done the program, but I wouldn't have had maybe the expectation or thought that, Hey, once I've graduate from here, I can be a developer cuz that I don't think that that's realistic for someone like me who didn't have any experience with Javas.

Keisha Mitchell:

Thank you. And I think that that's so important. Like, I mean, truly, like I don't, I really don't think that that can be emphasized enough because it's important that people understand that again. And this is not to discount skills like welding, because that too takes time. That too takes an amount of passion. You know what I mean? That too takes practice in a studio where no one else is there and a desire to go in there and do those things, you know? Um, but already, you know, to sit at the computer and to sit at the computer for hours on end is already, you have to have a certain aptitude for that. You know? So just speaking from a basic personality point, it's really important that people are able to adequately and accurately gauge who they are and what their relationship is. Not only with technology, but things like computer screens, things like code, you know, thing. I mean, because this is the nature of the job. These will be the nature of the jobs, you know? And if, if you struggle. With that aspect of it, then I, I, I would, I would struggle to see a comfortable trajectory. Now, obviously there are, again, a million, one things you can do in tech that are not coding, but I think also maybe more conversations, which we do have workshops, but I think more conversations would also be helpful, you know, about other things that you can do in tech in case a person does feel like, oh, this isn't for me. You know? Um, it's important to people that they know that they still have access. They can still be a part of it. Um, and that there is a place for them, you know, but maybe being a developer, just isn't it. And again, there there's no like real personal accountability there. Um, I know for me to the thing about interest, it's also about mindset, right? Because I work two job hops doing this full time. Um, And I would have liked to have had more time, you know, and it's not that I didn't know that nine to five would be consuming because it was, and it's not that I didn't personally expect to have to work after hours on it because I did. But I think that, you know, just on an adult level, in terms of like budgeting and planning out what those 12 weeks of my life would've looked like since, you know, I, I think I would've taken more time, you know, I know that often, well, when we did our group projects, I think that I was the only person. In my, in my project that was still actively working. You know what I mean? So there are things like that that you kind of gotta consider, um, when it's time for team building activities and stuff like that. And it's just, again, there's no way to know these things. You don't know what you don't know, you know what I mean? And there's no way to know these things, unless somebody's kind of like actually counseling you and giving you that information. Like this is truly what needs to be expected. Cause it's one thing to say, oh, it'll be a lie. It's intense. There's a lot of information, but it's another way to, again, just think about how you relate to information, what your part, you know, personal environment is to be able to receive best and learn best. And I, yeah, I definitely would not recommend working full time or working really if you're gonna do a program like this, because you need the time to really focus on what you're focusing on, you know, So I, I, from personal experience, that's just what I would say to anybody that has a job and is looking to do a full and they offer part-time. So it's not like they're not, you know, conscientious of that at all. Uh, but just from a, again, a student's perspective, if you know that you have to go to work still, or that you don't necessarily have the capability to kind of like, just take that break and focus on something for three months, I would really, you know, figure out maybe other ways that you could get the things that are most important to you, you know, or, you know, discover what your interests are, um, before kind of like putting that hard break on your life, you know? Okay.

Don Hansen:

That's a fair assessment. Um, so you know, it, it feels like, it feels like we've established kind of who this program is for and who it isn't for. And more importantly, you. very clearly elaborated on, on what your struggles were based on your current life circumstances. And it feels like there was a mismatch of expectations. And so, you know, that is feedback for the program of really laying out, laying out those expectations, whether they choose to like add more pre-work or extend a program or whate you know, whatever that's up to them. But it sounds like. A lot of people. Um, and you know, it's not to discredit things like welding and stuff like that, but a lot of those different professions that you get into it's, it's different than software engineering. It's not better, it's not worse, but it's different. And it feels like it's more of an, you know, complete these steps and you'll get this job where software engineering, it doesn't feel that linear it's very complicated and it's frustrating to like really try to solidify that. So I think all of you did a really good job of establishing those expectations for aspiring developers considering this program. But it also sounds like, you know, overall it feels like all of you are pretty confident that there's gonna be supplemental work once you graduate to really stand out and be competitive. So what, like speaking of their career services, what kind of support do they provide to help you once you graduate? Is it teaching you at a job search? Is it providing mentorship or you can call in and ask, is it, what, what do they provide to help with that next.

Chris Blake:

So, um, I can guess I can go first since I'm pretty fresh on this. Um, so basically once you graduate, um, you get assigned a, basically a career counselor, right? Um, you also get a set of modules to kind of complete, it'll basically help you, um, Polish out your resume, Polish out your LinkedIn, and basically all the other things like your website portfolio and how to interview and whatnot. Um, and you kind of have to go through those modules as your meeting with your, uh, with your counselor. Um, now as of right now, I have a new counselor, so I haven't, I just found this out yesterday, so I haven't met with her just yet, but typically, um, I'm just in the very beginning stage. Um, so basically first you meet with your guidance counselor and you kind of go over what. What, what is your goal basically is they're asking, right? So, um, most people graduate the bootcamp, cuz they're trying to find a web developing job that's web development bootcamp. Um, but it's just trying to refine, see what exactly you're looking for. Um, now they did mention, Hey, you know, don't kind of depend on them to do all these searches for you. It's more so lean. You can lean on them, but don't depend on them. So basically you still have to do all the applications yourself. Now they do send out a list of companies they have, uh, they're partnered with within the greater Indianapolis area. So that's really helpful. Uh, seeing what companies are familiar with 1150, where their graduates have been. So if a job. Posting or position opened up within that company, they can send out a referral. Just makes it a little bit, uh, the pro the process, uh, easier in terms of applications. But, um, but yeah, so basically you get your modules, uh, you meet your regardless counselor, and then you basically have the connections with integrator Indianapolis area. I haven't gone that far into the career services yet since I'm actually just finishing up the modules, but, um, yeah, that's basically it. Okay.

Don Hansen:

Sound pretty

Sally Mellinger:

similar. Yeah, same experience. Yes, same experience for me, you know, they help you with your resume. And I will say one of, one of the, you know, I don't know much about any of the other development boot camps, but I will say that the connections that 1150 has made with other companies in the Indianapolis area is very advantageous. For their students.

Chris Blake:

Um, yes, that list they send me was very, very long . Don Hansen: Okay. It feels like, it feels like they're really tied into the local community and it feels like they care about the local community. And sometimes when you get programs that are in larger cities, not so much, right. They, and sometimes they just give a lot of empty promises, um, based on, you know, like so many times quit boot camps, I've offered like career days hiring days and you find out like, half the companies just want, you know, the people who went through the program then became a TA and went through the program basically again, or, you know, half them were trying to hire for equity. And like, you weren't even making a salary. You were just like getting a percentage of some company that probably wasn't gonna be successful. Right. Um, so I, I see that in a lot of bigger cities, but it feels like this program does care about the local community, which is interesting. Um, Okay. I feel like I have a solid grasp on the, on the program everything's laid out. Um, I think we're just kind of getting to the point where we're about out of time, but before we do wrap it up, um, what's one final piece of advice you would give for people in general, not necessarily even going to coding bootcamp, just aspiring developers in general. Hmm.

Don Hansen:

Maybe even a piece of advice you wish you had heard when you first started.

Chris Blake:

Um, I guess I'll go first since I . Um, I said the biggest piece of advice is if anything, if you're thinking about learning, how to code is do your research, um, There's gonna be a lot of content out there in terms of software development, software engineering, whatever the case may be. Do your research and find out what field you actually wanna be into. Um, because depending on that field, whether it's data science, um, web development, whether it's front end or back end, it's gonna be different technologies. You're gonna need to learn. Um, so now for example, um, pythons, yes, you can use that in web development, but that's something more so with data science, right? That's more so broadly used in data science than web development. And I didn't know that so that I, I I've, I've learned more than. Few technologies run, uh, that didn't make sense learning this. So I'm gonna gonna learn something else. Oh, I'm gonna learn something else. So find out what field, uh, you wanna be into before you actually put time. Um, I think that's the biggest advice, cuz I've raised a lot, a lot of time learning new things every couple of weeks, just to find out that that's not even being used in the field. I wanna be in, so, okay.

Sally Mellinger:

So I would say this is coming from someone who is working in an industry where I'm not a web developer necessarily, but I work with a development team. So I work cross functionally with web developers and I, I will say that that one skill. Um, so I work in marketing and one skillset that I would love to see more of in the development community that works on websites specifically like big enterprise websites is to just have some knowledge. SEO and to have a little bit of knowledge of, um, like UX UI. I think that if, if it develop, I think that having those two skill sets specifically will increase your chances of, of finding an opportunity, um, in a full-time job like exponentially.

Don Hansen:

Um, yeah. I wanna add to that. Um, I think that's why I got my first job. Yeah. And I've talked about my story before, so I'm not gonna go into it, but basically, um, I, I was doing portfolio reviews. I did like 500 portfolio and project reviews of aspiring developers and I focused on tons of UX stuff and I loved it. I did it because I actually enjoyed thinking about the psychology of the user. Um, but also the SEO part was something I was weaker in, but I was also very curious about, um, and I mentioned that my interview as well, and I can tell you my position was front end focused. Um, I was really like the UX team did enjoy me in the conversation. At least that's what my boss said. Maybe they said stuff by their back, but you know, they enjoyed me in the conversation cause I like, I had a lot of very thorough conversations and I cared about what they were saying and I talked about it and I, I was able to understand them and. Kind of very clearly because I understood them. I could give them realistic limits of what we could do and what we couldn't. And also, um, with SEO, like I learned tons of SEO stuff. Uh, we were very SEO driven. That's where we got a lot of our traffic and that really brought a lot of revenue towards the business. So for front end positions, uh, I don't talk about that a lot, but I'm glad you said it that's really good advice. Cool. How about you,

Keisha Mitchell:

Keisha? Um, I think that I would just say, you know, just stay informed and just keep your ears open, you know, um, Definitely listen to what your teachers and your instructors in whatever bootcamp you have to say, but also, you know, stay open to your own research, continue to try to cultivate an environment where this is something that you wanna be a part of, that you do find ways to let it, you know, be a part of your life and take over those necessary parts of your life. You know, read the blogs, you know, stay a part of the, you know, the group chats and the forums and the discords, you know, assert yourself in the community network, laterally, you know, uh, communicate with your fellow students, try to communicate with your teachers, you know, because those are the connections that you'll lean on as, and that you will benefit from as you continue to grow through this as a career. And then if you are gonna do the development part, then I would say, you know, learn to enjoy, uh, being wrong and learn to appreciate. It as a means to getting to the right answer, you know, uh, cuz you'll be wrong more than you'll be. Right. And if you can't and that's like something that's hard for you to deal with. Yeah. this might not be, you know, the best feeling I agree, but if you can appreciate being wrong then yeah. You'll, you'll be able to go really far. I think

Don Hansen:

that's a hard thing to get over. You get a lot of feedback as a software engineer and even not just from people in general, just constantly seeing your failures until you finally get that one success and code lights up and it works

Keisha Mitchell:

and it might only be one success. that's true.

Don Hansen:

That is true. All right. I think that's a good spot to end. Um, let's go ahead and jump into the outros. Chris, if people wanted to reach out to you, where could they reach you and feel free to shout out? Like if you have a website blog, something like that.

Chris Blake:

Yeah. So, um, I believe, uh, the best way people wanna reach out to me, I would say, uh, LinkedIn, but I, I just finished my, uh, portfolio site. So, uh, if people wanna reach out to me, you can, uh, reach me@cbldev.com. So that's just see, as in Charlie, B as in boy, L a K E D E v.com C Blake dev.com. All my, uh, socials will be on there. Um, and yeah, feel free to reach out to me and always open to network and, uh, connect.

Don Hansen:

Cool. Thanks, Chris. How about you, Sally?

Sally Mellinger:

Yeah, uh, best place to connect with me is gonna be on LinkedIn. Um, very responsive to messages on LinkedIn and connections.

Don Hansen:

Okay, awesome. How about you, Keisha?

Keisha Mitchell:

Sure you can find me on LinkedIn, um, or contact me, uh, through my portfolio@keisham.tech. So that's K E I S H a M uh, dot tech is my personal website. And then also I just launch my blog, uh, route directory blog. So route D ir.blog. Um, it's tech talk for everyone again, just trying to simplify a lot of tech concepts and talk about things so that, you know, people can get a better handle on if they wanna, you know, kind of peer into our world or understand what your tech friends are talking about. Hopefully you'll find resources on my blog. That'll help you be a part of the conversation.

Don Hansen:

I love it. Well, I really appreciate everyone coming on. Um, and if you have any opinions, even if you disliked well, they took the dislike button on you tube away, but if you disliked the video and you have criticism provided in the comments below, um, if you liked it, like it, it really helps boost it in the algorithm, comments and likes. um, really help boost a video. It gets it out to more people. So please keep doing it. I really appreciate everyone that does, but, uh, we will do more episodes like this and Chris, Sally, Keisha, thanks so much for coming on. Stick around just for a couple minutes, but yeah, thank you

Keisha Mitchell:

can see everything we believe.