Dec. 20, 2021

Lambda School Coding Bootcamp Review in 2021 (BloomTech)


I invited on 5 graduates from Lambda School, now known as Bloom Institute of Technology. They all graduated in 2021; went through many of the talked-about changes; and had different experiences (positive and negative). If you're deciding on whether or not to become a student, watch this first to see if it's the right fit for you.

Don Hansen (host):
Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/donthedeveloper

Charles Wallace:
Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/charles-wallace-se

Liza Pincsak:
Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/liza-pincsak
Site - https://lizapincsak.com
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/liza.pincsak
Twitter - https://twitter.com/lizapincsak

Matthew Martin:
Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-jeshua-martin

Anthony Donovan:
Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/chitowncoder
Site - https://anthony-donovan.com
Twitter - https://twitter.com/chitown_coder

Luis Garcia:
Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/luis-garcia-jr

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Transcript
Don Hansen:

Welcome back to another podcast episode where we help aspiring developers get jobs and junior developers grow. We are going to be doing a special kind of podcast today. If you are a current subscriber subscriber, you'll notice it's a bit different. We have two extra people on, but we did a podcast episode previously with Lambda and it was highly requested that we do another one, um, with later graduates. So here we are. And I made sure to bring on more voices so we could touch on everyone's story, but like usual, we're gonna go ahead and start with intros before we dive into all of their experiences. So, Charles, would you like to introduce yourself? Yeah, for sure.

Charles Wallace:

Uh, yeah, so my name's Charles, I tend to go by chase. Um, I, I began Lambda in 2019 with a part-time course. I was web part-time eight. Uh, I was there for a while. I. Uh, I was working at tech when I first started Lambda. I was an application support engineer. So then actually working on the development side, but I had experience with, uh, project management. So kind of advocating resources for developers. Um, with that, I had began at bootcamp pretty much, right. As I started my job doing that, uh, I finished the course and end of 2020, and finally completed my certification, get my, uh, my verification, I guess in 2021. And I've been working as a developer since about midway through 2020.

Don Hansen:

Okay. Very cool. Thank you. How about you, Lisa? Is it Lisa or Lisa? Liz. Liz. My bad. Yeah, like Liz Minelli.

Liza Pincsak:

Yeah. So, uh, before I went to Lambda, I was a teacher. I did ESL. Um, I actually lived abroad quite a few years. Um, loved working with English language learners and when the pandemic had, I decided to totally change roles and got into development and did the full stack track at lamb graduated in June, 2021. And I got a job at Accenture. Uh, this is October, so I've been there about a month and I am a cloud first, um, on the cloud first design team as a senior analyst. Um,

Charles Wallace:

yeah, I think that's

Don Hansen:

about it. Yeah. Perfect. Thank you. How about you, Matthew? Hi, my name's

Matthew Martin:

Matthew Martin. Um, I began Lambda January, 2020, just finished June, 2021. it was a, I found a great journey, especially since I began out self-taught they helped me work on my team, building skills and communication still don't have that perfected down, but I'm still

Don Hansen:

working on it. Cool. Well, I hope this is practice for you. Um, what are you doing right now? I'm currently

Matthew Martin:

going through the hiring process for infos. I just got their onboarding email and filled out so they can send me a laptop.

Don Hansen:

that's cool. I mean, congrats. Um, and Lizza, you've recently got that position too, so congrats of both of you. Thanks. Cool. All right. Thank you. How about you, Tony? Hey guys.

Anthony Donovan:

Uh, my name is Anthony Donovan. Um, I came from a background of appliance repair. I owned a business for many years, very successful. Um, as I was getting older, I decided it was time for me to. Basically come up with a new career. So I decided to give Lambda a try. Um, you know, I, I really wanted to, to get into coding for many years, but, um, through difficulties and, um, life matters, you know, I just had to take my time. So I started a business, was very successful, made an exorbitant amount of money. Um, I decided to go full stack, um, went full head, uh, sold my business so I can completely concentrate on this. And this was in, uh, September of 2019 is when I actually started with Lambda. I went onto the full stack on the full-time course, but then, um, unfortunately some things happened and I had to drop down to part-time. Um, I did graduate in may of 29 or may of 2021, excuse me. And, um, you know, I had some amazing times at Lambda and, uh, But then again, you have some of those little quirks that, you know, drives people crazy. But needless to say, um, I am starting a startup in the beginning stages. I'm gonna be working on a bunch of SAS products, um, for the industry that I was in. Um, I do work, um, voluntary, um, with, um, a company called green stand. Uh, um, they do a lot of good stuff, uh, um, for people in third world countries, they need to plant some trees and all this good stuff. And, uh, it's a great way to track it. They make money, they see the tree getting planted. We get to see it. The tree gets a token and, uh, every time they take a certain image of this, of this tree, wherever it's planted, they earn some, some funding so they can survive. But, uh, that's, that's me and a wrap. Um, I love coding, you know, I, I, I, I delve into many different subjects at this time, but again, my, my goal is, is to have a successful startup. and, um, that that's, that's where it's going. So yeah, that's, that's about

Don Hansen:

it. Okay. Cool. Thanks for sharing. Do you prefer Tony or Anthony? Uh, Tony. Yeah, that's fine. Okay, perfect. All right. Is it Louis or Louis?

Luis Garcia:

It's? Um, whichever one is fine, honestly, I okay. Been used to it. So Lou, Louie, whichever. Um, well, my name is, um, the name my parents gave me is Louis Garcia. Um, everyone calls me Lou or big Louis or whatever. Um, I, uh, went to Lambda. I started Lambda in January of 2021. I graduated in September 25th. Uh, before that I was a truck driver before that, um, I worked at a call center. Um, I. Cricket wireless sales manager, sales floor. Um, uh, also used to work in fields, picking fruit and vegetables and, um, worked all types of odd jobs. And, um, I, uh, I, I was done with it for years and, uh, I just had no real solution. Uh, I became a truck driver and then I. I was passing through San Antonio. I saw something about joining like bootcamp. I didn't know what that was. I Googled it. And then I started getting all types of, uh, ads for different ones for different bootcamps and Lambda is the one that stuck out. And, um, I'm happy that I went with them and it was, it was an amazing journey. Made awesome friends, learned so much. And, uh, now I'm a software solutions engineer with Zoho. Um, it was pretty awesome. I mean, I graduated on 25th. I got my offer on the 23rd and then my birthday was on the 26th. So it was like back to back to back just celebrating everything. So it was, uh, it was awesome. Okay.

Don Hansen:

All right. Cool. So let me think here's how we're gonna do this. it's like I said, I wing it. I, I never prepare, but I, I have a good, good, uh, dictionary of a lot of different experiences at Lambda. And so I think what I want, and I think what would be helpful is I kind of just wanna jump into the pros and cons. Right. Um, and I'll kind of dig into it based on what you guys say, but let's start with, um, let's start with the pros. Um, and first of all, I actually, there are gonna be building people that watch my old video. There are people here that rated Lambda low. There are people here that rated Lambda high. And so I, I do feel like we have a wide variety of experiences and we're gonna dig into all of it. I promise you that. Um, so, um, yeah. What were some of the pros, like what really stuck out in a positive way about Lambda?

Anthony Donovan:

That's a good question.

Charles Wallace:

I'll go ahead and I'll start real quick. So I actually started my computer science journey. Uh, at college. I spent three years in university before I decided that it was taking too long for me to get to the development point of my career. That's when I actually got offered from Lambda. So I dropped out and pursued lamb instead. Uh, one big difference I noticed between land and, uh, normal university is that Lambda takes a very practical approach from the very beginning. Uh, you learn about GI control. You learn about GitHub, how to restric your apps, how to maintain a code base all from the very GetGo in my three years of university, I had not touched on that once. So that was a huge kind of thing from you learn. It was all my GI hub experience before it had been all self-taught. I mean, Lambda though, I was able to refine my skills right off the bat, learn how to version control, learn how to maintain code bases, um, using different branches, all sorts of things. Um, so the practical approach was definitely, uh, a great approach. I think Lambda

Anthony Donovan:

had. I agree, especially for those who coming into the, into the course that, um, have no previous experience, you know, um, Austin Eldrid really bragged about that. And that's what made me initially decide to pick Lambda over a host of other schools. And, um, you know, at the start there, it was amazing, you know, um, little difficult at first, but man, that I learn a lot in such a short time, but, uh, yeah, you know, they, they, when I, when I signed up, they were talking about about 1200 hours worth of hard coding time. And you cannot get that at any traditional college, unfortunately, because of everything else you have to do prior to you getting into coding. And even with computer science, you. You know, you're not, you're not really touching a whole lot of code, basically. You know, it's, it's learning about how to think like a programmer, you know, how the computer works and things of that nature. So with that instance, Lambda done some amazing things, taught a lot of people. And, uh, that's one thing I am very happy about. I, I, I learned how to pick up a, a new language rather quick and, uh, you know, it's always fun stuff. Okay.

Matthew Martin:

What else? I would say one of the pros is learning how to work with the team on there because I I've went through another bootcamp where it was very self co self, uh, driven. And you went through it by yourself. When I came into Lambda and we had, would have the build weeks, we'd be working with a team of developers, each one, having their own assignment from a react developer to a react architect, to the back end and maybe a data scientist on top of it and being able to keep communication. So we know what stage the app is at was extremely helpful. you didn't have to guess where the back end was. You didn't have to guess where the reactives were because everyone communicated.

Don Hansen:

Okay. And I'm, I'm just kind of writing things down. Cause I, I know I'm gonna have questions after we go through this, but cool. Anything.

Liza Pincsak:

yeah. Like to combine like the learning, the tech stuff, as well as the teamwork. Um, I really liked labs, which was like the last unit, um, where it's like a big month long project, uh, where we had like 20 you, their front end developer back and developer. Um, some people were the UI developers as well as some data scientists and you worked with a client and they had some sort of project that you helped bring to life. So it was pretty cool that we got to do, um, meeting with the client, hearing what they wanted and then we had to make the user stories and, um, develop it. Um, so that was like a really big, huge team project, which was, you know, good and bad. Right? Like it was pretty chaotic. You might have inherited code from, you know, a bunch of junior developers. It was kind of a hot mess, but like you, you eventually get used to it and it was pretty, yeah, you, we made stuff at the end. It was really cool. So I really enjoyed that. . Don Hansen: That. Yeah. Uh, it sounds like chaos and it also sounds fun. Um, when you say, I guess help me understand your stance, does, does Lambda claim that, uh, so when you say code from other junior developers, are you just meaning other people in your cohort or previous cohort? Or what do you mean? Uh, yeah, so I guess it depended on the, the project, but, um, like, so the one that my group inherited, it had been like the fourth iteration. So you're only on it for four months or for four weeks. And so there had been four other groups of Lambda cohorts who had worked on it previously and like, we inherited what they'd created and we have to build from there basical.

Don Hansen:

okay. Cool. What about you? Uh, Louis?

Luis Garcia:

Yeah. Um, something that was big for me was learning how to communicate with, um, with other programmers. Um, I, like I said, I, I was a truck driver, so I was, I, I would maybe get one text message a week to find out where I was at. So learning how to communicate with other people was, uh, something that I was scared about. Honestly, I was, uh, uh, I, I didn't know where to even start or how to ask for help and with, uh, with Lambda, uh, one of the options, uh, one of, I mean, the, the option that most people take is with slack. And so that was my first experience with talking. To, to any, to anyone in that manner. So it, it, it was pretty, it was pretty great. Um, and now that, um, the company that I'm working with, it, it's made a world of a difference, uh, because I'm able to actually ask questions when I don't understand something. And that's what, uh, I was really scared about to not be able to, uh, to ask those kinds of questions. But, um, like I said, that that just helped me get that, that helped me break through a lot and, uh, helped me become a better programmer, uh, at this point.

Matthew Martin:

Okay.

Don Hansen:

All right. All really useful. Um, so thinking before you move on to the constructive criticism, um, thinking about the application process, thinking about your interaction with the instructors, thinking about your interaction with students group projects, what you ended up coming outta the program with career services, any sort of mentorship, um, any other positive things to note. um, with, oh, go ahead.

Liza Pincsak:

Oh, okay. I was gonna say, um, I loved career services. I think that they were super helpful, um, especially with work making, um, a coding resume. I was not familiar with how to create one of those. Um, I mean, before I'd started Lambda, I would try to transition careers and applying for jobs interviewing it's it's really tough. Um, I was doing a pre COVID and then everything basically stopped during COVID and eventually I started Lambda. Um, so I started Lambda, um, September 20, 20, so, um, right in the middle of everything like everyone else. Um, and so I, yeah, I, I love career support. They were super helpful, um, go in and they would give you questions to ask prep you for them. Um, Um, and they also really helped with negotiation, which was something like I'd never done before. And like the emails that you, you have to write and follow up and all that kind of stuff. So I think that was really, really helpful with like that process of

Anthony Donovan:

it. Okay. So now we're only just discussing about the pros at this point. Yep. And I, and I also have a question, how many of you guys were part-time opposed to full-time? I, well, it fulltime full-time. I was part-time Justin part-time three part-timers and two full-timers. Okay. Just wanna make sure,

Luis Garcia:

sure. There's a couple different things that I would say still are in the pros. Um, I mean, uh, if anyone that's listening, I mean, they heard that some people start on certain dates and then on a certain one. I was supposed to be a part of the six month program. I was supposed to start in January. Um, and in June, um, I didn't end until September. Um, I struggled with some of, uh, uh, some of the sprints. I, not every, like I said, it it's, it's, it's something that you have to grind at. Sometimes you, cause you're learning something. So you, you, some, you have to grind at it. And there was, you know, three different, uh, in other was actually two different times where it was just, it was hard. I had to redo it. I said, I didn't learn enough. They're really big on that. They're really big on and that's not. And I was scared to do that as well. There's a lot, I was scared of a lot of stuff. Um, but they it's nothing to be scared about. It was just something where, Hey, you didn't learn enough or, um, Maybe you didn't understand it completely redo it, learn it now, instead of having one month at it, now you have two months at it. So when you go to the next step, it it's much easier. Um, I had a problem with, uh, understanding react and, um, like state management. Like those were big question marks. And once I redid it once it, I finally moved forward. I, uh, it helped me a lot. Like, I, I, I was doing better than some people that hadn't done that. So to me that was a big step. Um, flexing is amazing. Yeah. That, that flexibility that Lambda has it's. Uh, it's awesome. Um, and then one month I, I got sick. I got, uh, I got Corona and I, it was just a matter of sending a message on slack and it was taken care of like, no, no big, no big deal. Absolutely. So, yeah. Uh, uh, so to me that that flexibility was, uh, was incredible. Uh, another big one as well is so the way that it, it was set up, uh, central time, we would go start class. Um, I guess you could call it class at 11. It wouldn't end until one for me. Um, and sometimes in those two hours, , they would go through so much information and I wouldn't completely grasp it or someone ask a question because they don't understand. And, um, sometimes those two hours finished before I have any real grasp of it. So after they would have like, after hours for asking questions, uh, I was always there. I mean, like I said, they want you to succeed. I mean, of course, you know, I think, you know, they wanna get their money back, but I mean, they, but they want you to succeed. They want you to succeed and they're gonna give you as much tools as they can. And a lot of it comes down to, um, you taking advantage of those tools. Mm-hmm and, uh, um, open communication with instructors as well. Um, like I could go through a huge list of things that made a difference for me that I didn't know were available before I started Lambda. But, uh, those were, I guess, three big ones are me.

Don Hansen:

cool. I appreciate you sharing. All right. Uh, Matthew, did you still wanna say something? Uh, yeah,

Matthew Martin:

with my personal experience, one of the instructors has created their own startup company where they're giving like Lambda grads and other apprentice software engineers, a chance to get work time where they're building still building up their skills and still continuing on working on pro like actual projects. And I tell you that was fun. he was actually it, uh, pace elsewheres his instructor who actually owns the startup. It's a nucleus. And it's been a great time. I need to keep up with my end on it. I'll admit on that one. Just been a little shaky this last couple weeks.

Don Hansen:

yeah, but understandably. Okay. It feels like, it feels like with your cohorts, it, it feels like you felt cared for. Um, and the COVID, one's a big one because I've heard of programs having a super hard stance on that and making you, you know, re-roll back into previous, uh, or the next cohort and having to redo it. And that's not always the best solution for students because I mean, they dedicated a certain amount of time, certain amount of funds, financial funding, to be able to do that and being accommodating and flexible with that as much as possible is important during these times. Um, and it also sounds like the curriculum, it feels like the curriculum was pretty solid. I'm not saying it's perfect, but that's kind of the feeling I got from, uh, most folks of course, for the most part. And. I, that's kind of what I grasp. And then like labs, um, you know, month long projects. I feel like I've gotten mixed reviews with labs, but it does sound like it's, I don't know if they're improving and we're gonna dive into this, but, um, it sounds like some people had really good experiences with labs. And, uh, I can tell you personally, like some people didn't and I've talked to those people as well. Yeah. I'm one of them what's that? I'm one of 'em cool. We'll dive into it. Um, it also sounds like a big part is like, um, I just reviewed a program, um, in Indiana. I'm not gonna give it away cuz it's actually not released, but basically it brought in a lot of people that like are kind of computer illiterate, which is a really hard challenge to accomplish. And so they, um, I don't wanna give it away, but uh, screw it. Um, when you see this episode, people will see it. So basically they, uh, they struggled to. Bring in so many different skill levels, so many different skill levels and backgrounds, and kind of like they had good intention behind trying to bring, especially like underprivileged people up, but they, they still need to solidify the execution of that. And a lot, it kind of hurted or hurted. It kind of hurt a lot of people that weren't quite prepared. Some people fell behind, some people dropped out and when you bring in like a variety of skill levels, variety of backgrounds, it's hard to make everyone's journey. Perfect. It's really, really hard. It's a, it's a tough challenge. And so it feels like, um, you know, just talking about like you being a trucker, you coming from an industry, that's not really tech related, not even tech adjacent and you know, just really improving just communication skills and like fundamental skills of being on a successful software engineering team. It feels like that's something that they know needs to be a priority. And they're trying to bring everyone up to speed with that. That's kind of the feeling I get, um, do you feel like I'm way off with that or are you ready to jump into the constructive criticism? Pretty accurate. I would say so. That's pretty right. Okay, cool. Let's do it. So what could they improve? What were some of the hurdles, the frustrations you had with Lambda? Let's talk about it.

Anthony Donovan:

Well, there's a lot to talk about, but go for it. All right. You know, here, and when you initially contacted me, you, you gave me a list of things you wanted to make sure I was a proper fit. Then you contacted me again and you gave me a little, uh, you know, gimme a little intro. So I gave you a little something. And you know, when, when I first applied for Lambda school, you know, it was, that was kind of difficult, you know? Um, I, I started off with my business. I built my own websites with, uh, WordPress, no big deal. It's click and drag, you know, who can't build the WordPress sites, you know? And, uh, you know, I, I, I really enjoyed, and I embraced Lambda so much, but as I started going through Lambda and I don't know if any have used it since I started in 2019, I got to see a big variety of, of changes. I mean, a lot, a lot of changes. Okay. And when I'm talking about changes, they're physically taking away from the curriculum. So when you sign that ISA agreement, And that ISA agreement, labels and lists every particular situation that can happen. Well, when I signed a Lambda agreement and the ISA agreement, we were supposed to have Lambda X, we were supposed to have, um, quite a few other scenario situations happen after you got outta labs to help you, as students prepare for the job. One of those was to work on open source projects, Lambda, as they usually do. They had major structural changes and as a part-time student at the time, it was really taking a hit with the groups that I was in the cohorts. You know, they, they, they talk about peer programming. Well, I was the founder of one of the biggest peer programming groups at the time. And I bet you, if you look for team awesome, somebody, one of our, two of yous might have heard of it because we were all over. Um, so when they started extracting things to, towards the end and towards the middle of my time, the, the instructors really didn't care. Now, you, you mentioned with pace Ellsworth, I didn't learn anything from him, and I'm gonna be honest with you. He was just going around in circles. So after one of his, um, sessions, I just put in one of the chats. Okay. I'm gonna go and watch my full stack on my, uh, full-time instructor because I related more to them. Well, next thing you know, I get a, a message from a TL or an SL that I need to work on my soft skills. Now, what does something have to do with soft skills when you're gonna say, oh, I'm gonna go and watch another video. Just to better up my, my, my knowledge of something. They didn't want to hear that. So that was one strike, but you know, I, I can continue to go on, but I, I, I want people to understand I've learned a lot from Lambda. What I don't like about Lambda is the bait and switch. You can't go and sign up for a Tesla, sign, all your dot, your, your, your information, sign your life away for $30,000. And then they cut more than half of the program away. So we're still liable for all this money, which is, which is fine. But when you start baiting and switching, when you release 65 employees prior to my graduation, that has direct effect on the part-time classes. Mm. It doesn't make no sense. So who takes a real hit the part-timers. So now not only do the, part-timers have to share career services with full-time students. Our, our mentors were no longer there not to mention. They got rid of the TLS and we had to take on that Brun. So it takes away from our learning and I can go on and on, but that's just, just a minute, little subject of how I can see, uh, Lambda, bloom, technology, whatever you wanna call 'em today is doing. And so I graduate, they fire the 65 people. Two months later, they start the part-time programs back up. Why did they do that? They said it wasn't very successful for them. Obviously somewhere down the line, they figured out that they needed the part-timers. So, I don't know. It's it's just, it's a big mess.

Charles Wallace:

Yeah. My experience was very similar to yours. Same way I started 2018. I watched 'em cut program after program switch curriculum on us. Uh, we'd be a week out from starting a new curriculum and they'd tell us they they'd completely switch language. We're gonna do it in, uh, that was specifically on backend. They, we were able to, I think, make a choice between Java or Java

Don Hansen:

script or no JS, we should say,

Anthony Donovan:

yeah, we couldn't do Java.

Charles Wallace:

Yep. And they cut that out the, the week before. Right. So feeling like I had my foundation for JavaScript set up really well and having no jazz experience in the past myself, I was going throughout the course material, um, before we even started the unit. So I could actually have a better understanding when we started cuz Java was something that I had struggled with the past. When I was at university, it was a complex language for me. Uh, so I spent two to three weeks preparing for this only to be told a week before we started that, that program that we were no longer allowed to select Java. Uh, and I had to pretty much, I felt like I wasted three weeks of my time. Not only that they restructured our computer science unit, so they reordered things. So instead of going into the original order retold, uh, we, they kind of, we can switch things up on us last minute with very, very short notice, slice in hand again. Yeah, exactly. I agree. And then they also did, uh, cut. I feel like quite a few programs that I originally agreed to and attracted me to Lambda,

Anthony Donovan:

which is a breach of contract

Don Hansen:

mm-hmm . Charles Wallace: You I'm not a lawyer, so , Anthony Donovan: I've, I've So I feel like, I feel like if I signed up, so it sounds like the, especially with you two, it sounds like. Value that you got out of the program, even just the programs itself, disservices that were offered, like the whole experience that was offered, it feels like it didn't even come close. And this is a huge amount of money. This is a huge amount of money you're investing into it, especially with an ISA. This, I mean, I have a episode, I guess you'll people will see it, uh, by the time they watch this. But I have an episode where, um, Vincent woo shares the ISA numbers that come, I think he was kind of estimating a little bit closer to $50,000 students would be paying back or something like that. I think, I think he was a little unsure of that, but it feels like saw that 30,000.

Liza Pincsak:

but I, and so it might be different for the

Charles Wallace:

new

Don Hansen:

people.

Anthony Donovan:

Yeah, well, they did restructure.

Don Hansen:

Mm. So yeah, they changed a lot and that, that's fine. If Austin wants to comment on that, that's completely fine. But it, it feels like for the amount of money, even just dropping a servicer two or the experience being different than what's advertised will tain the entire experience. Like, and I feel like if you start off on the bad foot with anyone, it just, it, I, I would've like, you're talking about all these things that were dropped. I would've been pissed off like one or two of those things into it. And it feels like a good chunk of the experience just did not match up. So I can really empathize with that when you are paying a lot of money. And you said you were on the ISA specifically. yes, mm-hmm, that as well. Mm-hmm, , that's something I can, I can truly empathize with and I feel like Lambda, and I've heard this quite a bit. I all coding bootcamps do this to some extent, not to the extent that I've heard with stories with Lambda. Um, so yeah, I, I'm just saying like, I, I would be really pissed off at my experience. Um, given what you've

Anthony Donovan:

shared, you know, what pisses me off though. And, and I don't know how many people notice this and I, and I don't mean to interrupt, but what's funny is, is once you start learning to work with the developer tools, right, you get to go in there and you look at the council and you get to look at all kinds of information. So here I sign up in September of 2019 for a boot camp that was built off of WordPress, true story. Their whole infrastructure was built off of WordPress. , but yet they're gonna teach us full stack development when their own system was failing. That was that

Don Hansen:

system or infant structure. Um,

Anthony Donovan:

like their website for their website was completely creative. Okay.

Charles Wallace:

From WordPress market portals and everything too, not just the marketing sites, like marketing sites is very common to see WordPress sites on this was like all the technical resources. We're gonna WordPress site, all the docs and the videos, the code examples, all this was. So

Anthony Donovan:

that was, that was the first flag. Right? I mean, come on now, but now you see Austin always up on, on Twitter talking about the good possibilities and the wonderful things Lambda is doing well. Yeah, they're doing some good things for a lot of people, but they're also doing a whole lot of shady things, unfortunately. So who is the real slim shady? Is it Austin Elridge? Probably.

Charles Wallace:

Now I don't know how much Austin has to do with this stuff, but the whole ISA structure too is kind of. Questionable at times, um, from my experience, I was set to graduate near the end of, uh, 2020. Um, however, my ISA started billing me before I finished graduation. Wow. Uh, I reached out a people team. Uh, didn't hear back for weeks and weeks at a time was reaching out consistently through every week. Finally, they were able to get back to me and tell me, oh, well, since you have a position in tech, this is my, this is a position I was in before I started land. I was coming before this. Right. But the, the, the overall umbrella that I have for anything tech related, for any skills that you pick up there, this was covered under the ISA. So I was starting to be billed before I actually was considered graduated. Despite the terms I agreed to being, once I was graduated, I started paying my ISA, uh, this interfered with my finances a little bit at the time. Right. I was planning a wedding. Uh, and so that kind of cut into my, my wedding cost. Um, So that was, and, and the worst part about that too, is despite me asking them, I, I was hearing different things from different resources. So one person told me, no, you shouldn't be built until 20, 21 or the end of 2020 when you graduate. No, you're supposed to be built. The middle of 2020, nothing was consistent between the billing department, people, teams. No one really seemed to know

Don Hansen:

exactly what the contract actually

Charles Wallace:

contained or why when I should actually built, despite it clearly stating I should have begun my ISA upon, uh, completion of being considered graduated, which you would imagine to be upon seeing your cert your certificate, right? So once you finish land of services or if you drop from the Lambda program and you get a job in tech that also would qualify you, right? Because you still learned the skills, it was your choosing to leave. Uh, but I was still actively in the program being billed for the program

Anthony Donovan:

that had not yet. I was contacted and talking directly with Austin himself on just one of many situations. And, and one thing that comes up and I have screenshots of everything. One thing that comes up is when they cut this, when they fired are laid off 65 employees, that was directly, um, responsible for our part-timers career services. Mm-hmm I brought that up to Austin himself. He denied everything. He denied it. He doesn't remember, he talked about anything about it until I showed him the screenshots from his personal Twitter account, he cut me off. He says, I don't have nothing more to say I have to go. So we need to really watch on how we. Try to say that Austin doesn't know what he's doing or what's going on because his hands are highly deeply involved in this. I have a lot of proof. I'm not trying to step on anybody, toes. I'm just, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm here, you know, a $30,000 is a lot of money.

Don Hansen:

Definitely. Yeah. And I, I appreciate your experience. Um, okay. So we we've heard both from Charles and, and Tony. I appreciate you sharing all that. Um, does that, does that resonate with everyone else or do you feel like you've had different negative experiences are constructive criticism to provide?

Matthew Martin:

I'm definitely with Tony on when the 65 employees were cut, because I loved having the TL there because we would do a weekly one-on-one meeting and. If I was having problems with at work, I could explain to her that there's something going on at work. They're having to have me work extra hours and it's making me exhausted. She'd be able to make sure that's taken into account if I'm late on a project or something. Um, so I was really sad when the TLS went away, because that, that was one of the things that really got me through the first three units. And then I just went independent on my own , but okay. Um, I haven't encountered anything with the ISA yet, but I'm also just hitting my first job right now. So, and I, I come from food, so , haven't made a whole lot of money yet.

Don Hansen:

Okay. All right. How about you two? um, I guess, uh Lizza and, uh, Louis. Sure. Um,

Liza Pincsak:

I mean, I think the ISA is a good and a bad thing. They they've changed it. Um, I think you do have to do a down payment now, but like when I started, like, I didn't have the money, you know, to put money down. Um, so that was definitely a huge reason why I joined Lambda. Um, it made it a no brainer basically where it was like, okay, I have nothing to lose, right. If I don't get a job making 50 K I don't have to pay anything back. So that was a big, one of the big reasons that I, um, did it, but, and, and I'm, I haven't started paying back my repayments yet, cuz it's, I don't, I don't know how they calculate when you actually start 41,

Anthony Donovan:

60, 60 a month, you have to make more than in order to pay that back. So if you hit that $4,160 threshold in 31 days or 30 days, you have to pay the following month or however it goes.

Liza Pincsak:

yeah, it's some weird on the 15th, you have to submit stuff and then they, I, yeah, so I have not started paying it back yet. I'm not really looking forward to it, but, um, I mean, it, it, it is hard. Right? Cause it's like, I wouldn't have been able to do this. Had I not had the ISA? So, absolutely. So it's like this because like, I, I, I had, I went to university and I went to grad school and like that was partially paid with scholarships. And like, they don't offer scholarships with land. Not that I'm aware of and maybe they do, but not that I'm aware of. And so like, this was like the only way for me to be able to do it. So

Charles Wallace:

it is fun times. Yep. , Liza Pincsak: it's a choice, right? Yeah. You have to know what you're stepping into. And overall I'd say the ISA is a great thing, right? Just the ability to, it gives you a lot of like financial, uh, Like movement, I guess you have the ability to pay later, which is awesome. Yeah, absolutely. And that's kind of, it, it's a great thing, but yeah, there's definitely some questionable parts about it.

Don Hansen:

Uh, but I feel, I feel like

Charles Wallace:

the, the provider overall belief I think is who I use for my say overall, they've been a great provider. Uh, they're awesome. I each other support multiple times, they're super willing to work with me. Uh, if I've had issues with payments or questions about why they're charging me X amount versus this amount. It's awesome. Uh, and they're, they're great about reaching or kind of being an advocate, I'd say as well, the ISA terms. Um, so overall though, I'd say the ISA is a great thing. Uh, just kind of question a little about some of the terms inside of it.

Don Hansen:

We'll, uh, we'll dive a little bit deeper into the ISA in a second. Um, cause I think that's an important topic, but, uh, Louis, how about you? Any constructive criticism? Does it resonate or does everything else resonate with you or would you add anything.

Luis Garcia:

what, um, my experience with when they had laid those people off, you know, sorry that happened. , um, you know, anyone losing their job sucks. Um, but the whole TA thing, honestly, that it, I didn't like that. I, I didn't get anything from it. Um, and I was hoping not hoping that it would go away in the way that it did just, uh, that on, in the beginning, that was actually one of my criticisms, uh, was because, um, it would set you up with a group. And so if, say you were in, uh, In, uh, your first sprint and they would have somebody in the second, in the third, in the fourth. Um, and then when you had that, uh, that build week on that last week, uh, it would be that group of people that you would, you know, um, build, uh, uh, the applica, the website with. Um, and so since you were, you know, uh, sprint one, you know, you would just handle some of the, um, you know, the, the, the, the design, and then the last week, uh, sorry, like sprint five, they would handle, um, you know, the back end of everything, connecting everything and, uh, the, the database and all that. And when, so I didn't mind the group itself, but I didn't like that. We would have to, um, take time out of our day or sometime out of the week to get with the group, because, you know, there's some times where I was, I was. Busy. I was, I, some, some of these projects, some of these assignments were taking me all day. Um, and because I was always asking questions or, uh, I would team up with just one other person or, you know, that that was in my same cohort cohort. And, um, so taking away from that time, I, I didn't like, so when they had done away with, I was honestly the whole TA thing. I mean, whatever you wanna call it, uh, team lead, or, um, they would communicate, I felt like I was getting in trouble because they had, uh, like were you had to contact them. And, and it, it was a whole ordeal, uh, I guess it was like an attendance thing. I'm not fully sure. And I didn't enjoy any of it. And they, I know they were supposed to help us, but I wasn't really getting any help. And, uh, because you know, That person was trying to help everyone in all, like in, in all the sprints that they were in. So I wasn't getting any help really. Uh, because sometimes, you know, someone that's, you know, already in the last sprint and they're talking, you just don't wanna interrupt. And sometimes their problems are something that they're gonna talk about for an hour or two. Um, so when they, are you

Anthony Donovan:

talking about the mentors program?

Luis Garcia:

Yeah. Yeah. The, no, no, no, not the mentors program. Uh, I didn't like the mentors program either, but, uh, no, this is like when we were with our teams, I, I didn't like the LS SLS. Yeah. Something like that. I, I didn't enjoy any of that. So when that went away, I was like, oh, thank God. Like, you know, I could focus on what I'm supposed to be doing. And I could stay with my, uh, with the people that are in my sprint and, uh, go to those meetings instead and not have to worry about some attendance of submitting some I, I said, I think they stopped it around my. Second sprint. And so I, I don't remember it completely, but I remember I didn't enjoy it. So when they did away with it, I felt much better felt like I could do stuff because I mean, you're doing so much already then adding this thing on top was just a headache that was killing me. Um, and, uh, yeah, I mean, that, that was just my experience with that, but they did away with it. So, I mean, it's, it's a little bit hard because I went into Lambda with the expectations of that, that things would change and that if they saw something that wasn't working, they would change it. And if they saw something that was working, they would add it. And I guess that, that would come with some of those changes that they did. Um, because my mentor ship program was, was, was really not working. I mean, like my mentor was awesome. She was great. Um, but then I, it was my turn to become a mentor and the people that were under me that all supposed to mentor, it was not happening. There was no communication. It was just, Hey, uh, no, try to contact them all the time. Hey, how's it going? You need help. And just crickets, you know? And, uh, so you know, me trying to put time to help them. They're really. So when they did away with the mentorship program, I was like, okay, thank goodness. That's another thing I don't have to worry about. I could just get back to coding, which is what I was there for, honestly. Okay.

Don Hansen:

So is there anyone that did like the mentorship program?

Anthony Donovan:

No, I didn't. It depends

Matthew Martin:

on who I was partnered with. Like I had one mentor. His name was Chad, uh, skeleton art skeleton. I'm trying

Anthony Donovan:

to remember his last name. I went to school. I, I, he was in my class.

Matthew Martin:

He would communicate with me on either every other day or on a weekly basis, depending on what was going on with his life, making sure that I was progressing. If I had anything, I would pop it up on the screen. We'd go through the debugging session. Uh, when it was my turn to become a mentor, I had three of the students that were non-responsive. So I couldn't, I couldn't communicate with them. I didn't know what was going on. I did have one student that I was able to communicate, but was a infrequent basis. He would communicate back with me. So when it came to that, it, it became on, depending on what student we were partnered up with, I felt like. Because I did have a really awesome mentor. I also had a really awesome mentee who did ask me for questions, but then I also had the three men mentees that I couldn't get any form of response. Or I had one person who responded back to me going, I'm sorry, I just don't have time to talk with you right now.

Anthony Donovan:

mm-hmm and that happened qu far too often. That's why I think the TLS were a lot better shot for us because they did held us accountable for what we did, you know, instead of try. And, and what's funny is, is during my, towards the end of the part-time, we were supposed to be that last part-time class. So they just pushed everybody through essentially. That's what it seemed like, but, um, you know, sad times, but I learned a lot, no doubt.

Don Hansen:

So. It feels that, so there's so much depth to this and we don't have enough time in this podcast episode to dive into it. Um, again, for a lot of these issues, what I highly recommend you check out is Vincent Mo's research. And I feel like, um, I feel like there's, he, he would literally give timelines on a lot of this. And he would basically, he interviewed several students and he's able to like really dive into detail of why some of this stuff happened, why it feels like it happened. Um, even some just like lies in deception that happened. He goes over tons of detail about this for people that do wanna dig into it. So look him up. Vincent. Woo. Um, he did give some voices to people that felt like, you know, they genuinely felt screwed over and I appreciate that about him. Um, so I'm what I'm, I think with this episode, I'm gonna continue to solidify some of my thoughts with this. Uh, but I'm curious, what were the questionable terms with the ISA? Because this is something that's also come up.

Anthony Donovan:

Man I should have, I should had that ISA pulled up over here.

Don Hansen:

That's okay. Was it, so there are a couple, I, I can mention a couple things, right? So with the Lambda, um, correct me if I'm wrong, but basically they can still charge you five years later. If you finally get a job five years later, that ISA can be triggered,

Anthony Donovan:

correct? Yes. There, from what I understand, there's only one way that can happen, but I, I think I can let, maybe Charles, since he's already paying on that ISA, maybe he can decipher a little bit and I'll piggyback off of him.

Charles Wallace:

Okay. Yeah, for sure. So with, with Mya, um, it's, it's a five year period, so they can hold you contract like to the contractor for five years. Right? So if you don't get into a position within five years of time, uh, they can start collecting on it. However, let's say, for example, you spend a year without a job. You get a position again, uh, and let's say you have it for six months. And then for some reason you leave the field, you can let go, whatever happens you no longer, uh, catch that. My impression is that that five years doesn't restart it's another four years. So it just picks up from where it was left off. So if you have a one year time period, you spend six months working, then it's the four remaining years. Uh, after that ends, I could be wrong. But from the way I read the contract, that's how it appears. Um, now, if you let's say, for example, you are going for, you have the fire contract. The last month, that five years you get a job in development. My impression is they can start billing you and they can hold you accountable for the full two years of your term, or until you pay the ISA maximum, which is $30,000 for mine, uh, might be more for others. Uh, sounds like it might have gone up, uh, recently.

Don Hansen:

Um, but

Charles Wallace:

yeah, other than that, yeah, it's, it's that, that flat rate on your income? One thing I didn't like is I feel like it wasn't communicated well, um, When they're trying to get you to sign the contract. I had to actually read this before I fully understood what the percentage was coming from. It's a pretext contribution, right? So it's not post-tax uh, when I was being sold Lambda, um, it was, it wasn't ever brought up to me at all. I had to actually read the contract before I signed, which is something you should do, obviously mm-hmm . But when they're selling you the con idea of an ISA, my idea is, okay, well, whatever my take home is, it'll be 17% of that. Well, no, it's gonna be 17% of my pretax, which as you get into some of those higher number, uh, salaries, right? You tax rates increase land doesn't account for that. They're still gonna take that flat 17%. So I imagine in some world there could be a point where you're paying more than you taking home. Uh, in a sense, like if you get a raise and it just puts you over like a, like a, uh, a new tax threshold, right? Depending on the amount of the jump you might actually not be making more in your raise, you might be barely, uh, at what you were before, because lamb is 70%. Plus the increased tax rate. Good. In theory, make it here. You're not actually receiving a race. You won't see the effect of it. Um, I wish that's something they would push more. They would. And when they sold to me, they would've brought up more. Is the fact that 17% is pretax,

Don Hansen:

not post, which part of their, um, I guess of them bringing you into the, a, the program. Should they advertise that? Should it be a blunt thing on their website? Should it be while you're signing papers? This is something that advisors specifically emphasize. What would, what would you feel comfortable with? I

Charles Wallace:

feel like when I was being told my options over the phone. Right. So when I, when I submitted my application, they called me to go over things with me. Uh, and they had my acceptance. Well, after I had my acceptance, they called me to explain a little bit about my two options, either paying full outright, or I could do my ISA. They did explain it was a 17% on my salary. Uh, I feel like they could have emphasized right then and there as like, just keep in mind, this is pre-tax instead of post-tax and then potentially even in the form flow, when you go to actually select your choice, they could do a little bit of clarification instead of having to actually read through the IA, make it a little bit more known, like where that 17 percent's actually coming from. So you're knowing like, I guess where your money's going.

Don Hansen:

That's good advice. I like that a lot of, so I hear about different changes among different coding boot camps and. similar changes as, I mean, as far as, as far as, I mean, it's probably, it might be a profit driven motive. It might be a mismanaged financial motive. Um, obviously like when that many people get laid off, um, usually in most circumstances it is the executive's fault and there was a poorly managed financial situation. I've talked about it with Treehouse. I dove into details with that one. Um, but. Did one of the best things that you can do in that scenario. And I, I'm not a CEO of a large company, but it, it feels like just listening to so many students, the number one thing that pisses people off and changes their entire experience is that a lack of transparency. It's not owning up to what you do. It's not admitting, um, that you, like, we have to change it for this reason. It's kind of just pushing it under the rug. And then when you do connect, you know, Tony, you, you mentioned you connected with the CEO and it was a really horrible experience and he wouldn't even acknowledge it. Right. He wouldn't even, it is a lot of this has to do, like, in my opinion, sometimes it is a characteristic thing, but a lot of it is li. As well, and I think I guarantee you, Austin and other executives had talked to attorneys about how to do this. And this is where the break happens between, you know, kind of a for-profit company with executives, being able to be transparent about this, or being willing to be transparent about it. And then just the students being completely pissed off of the experience. It creates a division. And I feel like I, I, I would be very curious to interview Austin and like, hear about the liability perspective of why he chose to do what he did, but talking with Vincent. Woo. I think it's more about trying to reduce liability. And I think it is a personality thing. I, he kind of called out someone else that I actually didn't even recognize his name, but he, it, it felt like Austin is horrible with communication is horrible with PR and I, I don't think he handles it well, Does that. And so, like, I don't know if everyone's seen his Twitter account, he's posted some really interesting tweets. Other executives have posted some interesting tweets. Do you feel like that's something they definite, like what, in terms of like PR and just communication let's, let's dive into that a little bit. What could they improve with, what would you love to see

Anthony Donovan:

a number one is the transparency, you know, it's, it's, it's crazy, you know, not, not to just switch it around, for instance, if, if I had a question or if I called Austin out in a, in, in a slack group, you know, if, if, if you make any noise, it's like they white flag you. Okay. And, and I've been a target as I was there because I'm outspoken, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm an adult. And if I see something not gonna go, right, I'm gonna voice my concerns to my opinions. The minute you, you do that. And, and you can read around and, and I'm sure you've heard of it. Once you're white flagged, you're done. They don't care, you know, and, and I've experienced this and, and I, and I can go on, on and on and on about how they called me a ringleader. And, um, two, two fellow students, uh, um, that was in our study group, walked away from Lambda because they are big on peer programming. Well, when you peer program, you know, now we're in trouble for peer programming, you know, you're helping somebody out. You have to look at their code if they're not doing something. So we all found out about a Ary operator. Well, we used it and now we weren't supposed to, because it was coming to from another, um, uh, class that we were going to have. We didn't even touch on it. So just because we can't do our own research, you, you practice and you, you talk about, oh, we got a peer program because it's gonna make you. well, I had a huge pro peer programming group. A lot of people from many different cohorts attended it. Um, people, it was a go-to for people to get, to have questions answered, but they says I was the ringleader, you know, wait, what am I a ringleader of helping other people, helping other students learn code I'm I'm a ringleader of that. Well, two other students left the school because of it and I'm not gonna drop the names, but, um, there was a couple of TLS and SLS that they just had it out for me. And, uh, when I say you're whitelisted, you're whitelisted. It's, it's, it's pretty sad once they put that flag on your name, you know, no matter what you do, it's, it's hearsay.

Don Hansen:

So with some of the first experiences that you did realize, did you try a DM? Did you try an indivi individual situation or a conversation? Private

Anthony Donovan:

conversation? Multiple times and sometimes, you know, it would never get answered. The only time he really did answer me is, you know, when I was kind of sick and I had to take a little leave, um, or when I called him out in, uh, in a, in a mental health chat, um, that's that, that kicked him off. And, uh, once he got to talk with me, he didn't know what to say. And, uh, that's when he ended the conversation. So it's, you know, and it's, it's unfortunate because, you know, let me tell you, I was a, a huge advocate of Lambda. And if, if you look at my Twitter account, you'll see, I was always bragging and bragging in, in the early stages. And, you know, building 'em up, but referred a lot of my friends that wanted to get into this into technology. And, um, you know, it was like a stab in the back, you know, I. I gave it my all, and then these guys are gonna play this game, especially when, well, I won't go there, but yeah,

Don Hansen:

it feels like you're an all in type of person and it feel you are very outspoken obviously, but it feels like, like the fact that you did preach for Lambda, you invited friends, that's just your personality. Right? And so you, you are a champion for someone that has your back, but you also are going to call out someone that stabs your back. Right. That's the experience I get from you. And it feels like I can, I can feel even just when you're talking, it feels like you have been back stabbed by this program,

Anthony Donovan:

dude. I'm not only just gonna say that on one of my posts that I, I did on, on, um, on Twitter, I had, um, an executive from Lambda contact me to ask if they can use my post on their website. I mean, I was all out for 'em. don't shit on me. That's all I say and excuse my language, but it really pissed me off, you

Don Hansen:

know? Oh, this videos getting demonetized anyways, don't worry.

Anthony Donovan:

Oh, geez. I apologize. No, it's okay. You, you, you understand my, my, my point of view, I'm, I'm all in or nothing. You know, if you're gonna be faithful and honest to me, I'm gonna do the same to you, but the minute you're gonna step on my toes, I'm a grown, I'm a grown man. I, I don't have nothing to hide. I'm gonna, I'm gonna voice who I I'm from Chicago. I'm not playing, you know, I, this is how I was learned in, in the streets. You gotta gotta speak up. And, um, they, they don't like that. They want you to sit back in your corner and do what you, what you're told and, and, and learn. And if you're outspoken, well, they're gonna, they're gonna put a mark on your name. Yeah. And, and, and I, I can give you a list of other students that will, will verify what I'm saying and how I've been. Black ball are, should I say the stepchild that never amounted to anything and they're gonna push him away? Not that I don't amount to anything. I'm just, you know, just making reference here and that's it's it's it's it's it's the

Charles Wallace:

truth. Yeah, I'd say, I'd say a lot of behavior. You see, it landed too, uh, specifically in the channels that Austin was in with me is it feels very echo Chambery right. So they just wanna create a whole bunch of hype around whatever Austin's messaging about. Uh, so there was one point where Austin comes in. He is posting statistics on the new average salary, um, for, for land undergrad. Uh, I was one of the only few people who asked questions for more detail on that. Right. I wanted to know, well, what are the job titles look like? Are these junior positions, are these senior positions mid-level uh, and then I also asked, like, can we have like a salary range? What was the lowest, what was the highest, you know, cause you could have a whole bunch of low entry level positions, all 50,000, 2000, 2000, right at the cap. But then you have two people who are making over six figures cause they live in San Francisco and they got brought into the big companies just cuz they're they're great. Right? And the average average is a number. When I asked for that information, I was immediately sort shut down by saying, oh, you don't need to need to know that, like you don't need these details. And then I got a private message. I believed asking like, like, why do you want this information? And when I explained it out to him, I never heard back. Like, I didn't get any more information. He didn't respond to my explanation. And I never saw this figures. Just something that, that I was interested in. But he came, it felt like he was trying to defend himself right off the bat, which is fine. But I just, I'd like a little bit more it's it's okay. If people are making 50,000, right. There's a reason your cap is at 50,000. It's a, for some areas in the us, it's a great salary. Other areas though, you can, you can inflate that number and it makes it seem like you program is getting people salaries higher than is, should be realistically expected.

Don Hansen:

And I would, so I would argue that's a widespread coding bootcamp problem. Sure. And I guarantee you, Austin is not the only person to kind of Dodge that if he did mm-hmm um, so, but that is a problem. That transparency is important. And so, so Austin, so I feel like, and I really wanna emphasize, um, well, I'll emphasize that later. It feels like Austin is in a situation right now where it, the press is so bad. The situation with Lambda is so bad and I don't think he's handling it well. And I do think this was a rebrand that he did with the rename. I, what, like what advice, what kind of constructive advice? Like if you had to say, you know what I'm gonna give Lambda, um, and I know everyone doesn't feel this strongly about this, but like what, what would be kind of constructive advice that you would give to Austin? F for him to really pull around the brand or, or kind of just like really switch up the brand and create a strong brand around what is it, bloom Institute, um, what, what's your advice towards him?

Anthony Donovan:

Be real, you know, he, you know, he's like a $3 bill. We don't see many of them because there are none. You see? Um, he had a good idea, but unfortunately he ruined that good idea, um, because of his, his shenanigans and the school, not having complete transparency, um, stop lying, be honest, be truthful, you know, don't build something up if it's not really that built, you know, and don't and stop selling a Tesla and, and, and delivering a Pinto for Christ's sakes. Excuse my language. You know, this is, these are the things that he does. You know, he has a good talk. He has a good spiel. You can see what he does on Twitter. You can see what he done for the fellows program. You, you, you can see what he has done with, um, career services. You know, some people excelled with career services, you know, but it depends on where you are and what class you landed in. And unfortunately, my career services was ripped out from underneath us and a bunch of other students, you know, so we have to weigh that. I mean, what's, he, he, he should have, when, when you're in full-time classes, the full-time classes are treated much differently than the part-time classes. It's, it's evident they put more stock in the full-time than they did in the part-time classes. And it was evident. And, and I know this for a fact because I've been both ways. I started full-time and I dropped down the part-time because I thought. Going part-time. I would learn a lot more and I would have more time to understand what I'm learning opposed to cramming for those seven hours in the day and getting back up and doing the same thing again, the next morning full time took presidents. Part-time was like that stepchild that got in trouble. And I'll say this again, and I'll say it again. And you can ask a lot of other part-time students that were in the full-time track, went into the part-time track. It's completely different than night and day. And, and that's that's, you know, if you're gonna have this, this course, this, this bootcamp, it should be one way throughout the whole, throughout the whole school. Not full-time could do one thing. Part-time has another, just like Charles stated we could have learned Java. They pulled it from us. Why? But they're giving all these extras to the, to the full-timers. I, I just don't get it. And, and, you know, I guess a lot of that has to go with that transparency thing and, you know, being honest and keeping everything even keeled across the board may be hard, but he's a businessman. He has people in strategic places to make sure that business runs properly. Okay. And he's failed.

Charles Wallace:

All right. Um, I'd probably say overall transparency around numbers. Uh, these numbers that he likes to fly on Twitter and slack channels. Um, I'd love to see some peer reviewed articles or even, um, some case studies on students over on groups or cohorts. Uh, just kind of showing the successes, the, of the company and where it's started, where it's going and being okay with the fact that maybe at one point when he did cut all the or, well, they did cut all these, uh, extra things, all these extra programs or all the employees, um, being okay. Saying like, if there was like a job performance of the graduate. Being okay. Saying that and admitting to the fact that, okay, we did some things wrong now we're gonna correct them. Uh, so I guess just taking ownership, right. I feel like it's a big, he's big on Twitter. He's big in slack channels. Um, but he needs to take

Don Hansen:

ownership when he is wrong.

Anthony Donovan:

August cheap.

Don Hansen:

Anything else? I'm good. Is

Liza Pincsak:

it interesting that he, he compared, I think bloom tech to like the American dream, like it's, what's building the American or it's, what's making the American dream possible or something like that. And I think you, you just have to really go in like, Very critical of like, just manage your expectations. I think like there are yes, huge success stories. And like, there are people who don't right. And they do give you opportunities to learn like tech and things that I had. I came in knowing nothing mm-hmm and I came out with a job in tech, which is pretty incredible thing to do in about a year's time might take way longer than they say the six months I flexed a ton. Um, I have no idea how people could do it in the six months. They're amazing. but, um, yeah, I, I think, yeah, the thing, it, it is tricky, right? Like big, yeah. I don't know. I, I have so many mixed feelings about this. Like, , it's great, but there's all, you know, it's, it's not perfect. We could see it's, you know, I mean, but like, so is like most programs, right? I don't think there's gonna be anything that's perfect. And yeah, it just, you gotta be able to handle what is kind of thrown at you. And there might be a lot of changes and you kind of have to be able to go with it.

Don Hansen:

And you're you're right. And this expectation, um, right now we're laying out a lot of expectations for future students, future students that can ask questions to their advisors now, future students that can, whether they choose to part-time or even make a decision like, okay, Tony had a really bad experience. He feels strongly part-time program is subpar to the full-time program. Let's ask advisors about that. Let's dig into it. And a big red flag is if, uh, these questions that are gonna pop up for future students, if they can't ask these advisors, these where the advisors kind of being dodgy and won't be transparent about it, don't go to the program. And that, that is my personal suggestion. So it sounds like we have different experiences. It, it does sound positive. Um, it do, it sounds very positive and very negative. It feels like it's not consistent. And it feels like. Um, it's very, even hard to pinpoint exactly why people have positive experiences and have negative experiences when they're making so many drastic changes so quickly. It's hard to pinpoint that down, but this, and especially without knowing the executive reasons behind some of these changes and seeing the numbers, seeing the financials. Um, so it, these are good questions to ask. And I, I, I want to like really instill in people with a podcast episode. Like it does not mean Lambda's not for you, but it also means Lambda has a history that you need to hold them accountable for and ask those proper questions before you go into it. So. Yeah, it it's, it's a lot of mixed feelings for me too. Uh Lizza. It really is because the thing is, and I, I talked about this. It is weird saying this because my order is so screwed up, but I talked about this with Vincent woo. The previous episode, um, this is more common than you think. In other coding boot camps, but, you know, Vincent BU kind of suggested that, you know, a lot of people came out about Lambda and it's because of Austin's rhetoric and the other executive rhetoric, uh, executives, rhetoric, it, it triggered people. And so they came out and then more people felt comfortable coming out. And sometimes other coding, boot camps, they're very, very interesting and strategic about it, but they can have a chilling effect in the way they suppress negative reviews and you don't hear them. And I, I get a lot of private conversations, but a lot of this is. I, I wouldn't say I, I do think Lambda is unique, but I do think I hear some commonalities and I wish more students from other programs would speak up as well. Um, but that, that's kind of my call to action, but I know sometimes you're worried about like how it's gonna look to prospective employers and, um, stuff like that. And what kind of support are you gonna get from the program? So I do feel great that people feel more comfortable speaking up about Lambda. I just wanna see that with other programs as well. Um, okay. I feel like, I feel like we're gonna go over very soon. We touched on a lot. Um, I, I promise you there's more to touch on, like continue digging into stories, uh, continue digging into both positive and negative stories, but, um, yeah, I think it's about time you wrap it up. So we just have a little bit of time at the end. Um, so Charles, if people wanted to reach out to you, where could they reach you?

Charles Wallace:

yeah. Uh, best place right now is probably LinkedIn. Uh, Charles Wallace. Uh, it's my, photo's a clear photo of me, red hair. Um, I am reworking my website, chase wallace.com. Not ready yet. Uh, it's been kind of on the down low, but hopefully soon I'll have some cool information. Some cool

Don Hansen:

guide up on that. Okay. Sounds good. How about you, Liz?

Liza Pincsak:

Yeah, so people could find me either on, on Twitter, but I'm more on Instagram. Lizza dot ack. And I have a website too, of Lizza pinza.com. LinkedIn's great too. Same Lizza ack.

Don Hansen:

Okay. How about you, Matthew?

Matthew Martin:

Uh, most of the time people can reach me on LinkedIn. Uh, Matthew, Joshua Martin, J E wow. J E S H U a. Sorry about that.

Don Hansen:

No, you're good. It's been a long podcast.

Matthew Martin:

Um, , but that will probably be the best way to contact me for business reasons. Because my Facebook, I, I, I post a lot of personal stuff on there. I post a lot of my hardcore music artists. I listen to things like that. so don't need to scare anyone away with that.

Don Hansen:

I love it. Maybe just a few people. How about you, Tony?

Anthony Donovan:

Um, Anthony hyphen donovan.com. You know, I have to redo it. It's a it's, it's a website that's probably a year old or two. Um, but shy town coder at, uh, Twitter and Anthony Donovan on, um, LinkedIn. Okay,

Don Hansen:

cool. How about you Louis? Um,

Luis Garcia:

through LinkedIn Louis Garcia. Um, though she's probably gonna. Millions of us. Um, this is a whole bunch.

Anthony Donovan:

Um, just tell him to look for the good looking guy, right? Yeah.

Luis Garcia:

Just look for the good looking guy, smiling. Just, just seasoning. Uh, but yeah, any questions on, you know, always happy to respond.

Don Hansen:

Okay. I love it. Well, let me know what you think of the comments. Um, you did last time for me, so let me know again, um, I enjoy watching these comments, including I'm sure I'm gonna check out the ones from Vincent woo. But thank you for suggesting it. I appreciate people being vocal and letting me know you have an interest. And there was a strong interest for me to do another Lambda episode. This is how it happens. This is why I do it, but. Yeah, seriously, uh, stick around for a couple minutes, but everyone, thank you so much for coming on

Anthony Donovan:

you bet. Thanks for having us. You see everything we believe we just.