May 4, 2020

Podcast Interview With A Rising Female Leader In The Web Development Industry

Neha is a web development manager and a rising female leader in the tech industry. She also grew her JavaScript meetup to over 4000 members! We started off sharing experiences of growing our Meetups, but really ended up having great conversations around things like what aspiring developers can do to nail the interview, and even dove into overcoming the struggles that sometimes come with being a woman in the tech industry.

You can connect with her on Twitter @hellonehha.
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Over a year ago, I created a brand new company (DONTHEDEVELOPER LLC) with a very ambitious goal. By the end of this year (2021), my goal is for my business, that helps junior developers get unstuck and get that first position, to become self-sustainable and allow me to do this full-time. If my content has helped you in any way and you'd like to help support me with this goal or get more involved with our community, please consider taking a look at some of the links below. Thank you so much to everyone who's believed in me and has helped support this venture. You're turning my dream into a reality!

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spk_0:   0:00
Do I want to work with that develop or this is the moves. This is actually the last question Every interval is gonna ask.

spk_1:   0:08
So walk back to another protest where we help aspiring developers get jobs and junior developers grow. Here I have with me a name Ha really excited to ever here serve. Thanks for Come in. You know, I've actually been keeping up with a lot of what you've been doing in. You've been doing a lot of great things in India. You started and successfully have facilitated really large meet ups with thousands of members. Help in developers grow. I'm incredibly impressed. I think that's just amazing what you're doing. So if I do believe you have kind of opened up severe year meetings to people online do to cope in 19 which is very generous of you, so are actually put it in the notes. But just go ahead and look up. Js Lovers meet up and you can go ahead and find it there. Join a media. I think what she's doing is amazing. And she could be a lot of help to you. If you're growing, it's a development, so I want to give the Ford you to kind of introduce yourself and get a little bit of a background with here with your doing with development.

spk_0:   1:19
Thank it on for the nice introduction and having me. Me. I have 10 years of experience and I started my career as a Web developer. So I have the background of designing Web designing and after being a mid level of our senior level of developer. Then I decided to start a community I didn't knew about meet up at that time up. But that was the time when I just think on sharing the knowledge, and somehow this idea came. So it's been now five years. I am running Js lovers in India and we have cheers lovers in 4 to 5 cities different A 5 45 cities right now in Delhi, Mumbai, Pune, Jaipur And apart from that now I have, like 10 years of experience and I am working as a manager. My focus is majorly on the front end, and this is about me and yes, as you mentioned because of Cove in 19 I started opening my spots so that I can help and you know, whatever is going right now in the world. We can have a day from that and into a picture. So that's what I started

spk_1:   2:29
and that definitely cell's amazing read about now, too. Well, let's list. I've been again. I'm, um, fascinated with what you've done with the media. You obviously are very impactful. And India, you should be really proud of yourself. I hope you are. Because, like just even seeing some the comments and feedback that people are posted about your meet up like you, I wish more developers will do with your doing so. But I really, um I and I started a meet up in Chicago, too, pretty much to the same thing. Help develop in Chicago. And so I cannot wanna pick your brain. You know what it's like doing this doing this, media, some the challenges that you might have face And maybe even like where you're meet up started and where you realise that had end in become so how to pick your brain about this. You ready?

spk_0:   3:22
Yep. Shot. So started. Actually, Osama action. I didn't even knew that this is meet up. So either pointed to share the knowledge. And the reason was simple I was a senior. Developers and people were not helping each other because at work place it is more of a competition. And I was like, No, I don't I'm not that kind of person who want to be a competitive. I want to really, you know, help everyone. So at that time me and my senior, we were just one day after office. We were too strict chatting and we were just discussing about the issues. Every developer is having that people are stuck in the issues. But they are They are not up to asking help. And they are working in their own way. No one is there to tell them what is right. What is wrong, what is going in industry. So I was like, What do you think should I should be start sharing knowledge? My friend was like how it into it. So I knew about metre Broad come from somewhere. So I was like a wild know something. Let's times and that's how we started. To be honest at that, we both were like we will just do only three meet ups, and it will be it will. And the reason was, yeah, the reason was first of all in India, no one knows about metre, but them. If we were doing knowledge sharing, we were doing sessions for them. It was neck. There is something, you know, They are they they are trying to, you know, doing doing this so that in return they can get something out of us. So they they you shooting that we are on, start up all we are a product. At the end of the session, we are going to push them and sell something. And that what we since that we were not doing and we used to pay from her that that's the most challenging at at that there was no for working space in area at his in Delhi goes no forward to speaks. So getting a venue was very tough cos we're not ready to talk to me because we were No. One. We were not back with the big bank big brand names. So no one used to talk to me. And then I actually struggle for a month to get a place and we got a cafe. I used to pay for my pocket for that venue I used to pay for my pocket for the food, and then we used to do it. But the good part is, in our first meeting, we got like, 40 to 50 people Ln slowing yes. Then slowly, slowly I started gaining confidence that yesterday our people and our confidence gained when people used to come back and they used to tell me that you know the session you did at that time We got the job because of that. Are you did that session? Because, er stat, we were able to finish our college project and the biggest achievement was weeded out session or meet upon from exchanges. And there was a few attendees. They went back. We published their form extension and on home issues, they lot of downloads. So that person actually mailed me with every analytics and everything. And I was like, Watch for me. It for me and my partners basically meet a partner. For us, it was like a shock that visited thought of it, that it is going to be so and so. Yep. There were people who were not who it is coming for. You know, three food of something. By my focus was I was just only focusing on people who are very much into learning and they were getting advantage of of it. So after a year against than Microsoft came towards and I am very thankful to them, they were the first company which came to us. They helped me to get the venue in. The Microsoft they started sponsoring was for a year me and my co organiser. We were the only speakers on the metre platform. No one used to come forward and after area one after year when Michael's of sponsors. After that, everything changed. So every company wanted to helpers have be the one to forward and every person wants to, you know, tell the whole world that GS numbers Yes, is we used to go and attend their metres. So I actually at that moment affairs that my one year of struggle was worth with terms of, you know, putting my weekends and putting my money on the venues and the

spk_1:   7:47
yes, you know that that's interesting that you said like ex special. In the beginning, you had investor on money and you had can take a chance on some some random cafe. I feel like that's how a lot of meat up start and I don't even think members realise, like, meet up charges for us to do this. That's the certain number remembers and like venues, cars, then pizza cars or whatever food that you wanna bring in, like it takes a lot of time and money to can get something like this started injured, accelerated. So I'm glad year. I am glad I played off. I'm completely paid off for you.

spk_0:   8:28
Yes, A lot of people used to come to me and they used to say that quarters, your vision, what you were thinking. You know, now you have a quality. You have developers and I always used to tell them See, I am a developer. My full time job is Monday to Fridays in office. I have 24 and deliver. This is my passion and love meeting new people. I last used to Molly sharing. So if you are going to ask me my vision for this, I don't have and my second struggle with metre pulls. I used to joke about this a lot. I thought that I am going to Ghana Tech Metre, but it was not true because first I have to create awareness of what is attic. It's around meet ups because people used to R S V p. But people are not coming. So they were like lot of such attic. It's for missing. So my first job become that whenever am picking off a meet up, I used to, you know, first tell them like what is Mr Why It is important that if you're doing R s v p n, you're not coming, you need to inform the please provide. Please give your feedback after your session because this is the only motivating thing for me to keep this makeup going on. But an ad like now the situation is Toki defence now in India, lot of which have boobs, lot of speakers, Laura's core working spaces. So any person now can open their meet up. And they will not face all this trouble and challenges which have been said that

spk_1:   9:54
Yeah, I, um really glad you have all the support that you haven't even just having one of your first piece A cos a sport is Microsoft. That's that's amazing. That releases a lot about what you turned the meet up into bit out of all that most important thing. I can relate to the number of people that are s B p and don't show up like you. Compassion like, um, excited abduction. A look at the names that were coming in. I was so excited to meet all of them and, you know, like maybe half of them, which show up, Has it honestly fund a here year experience with this? Because I really don't talk to a lot of other media organises.

spk_0:   10:39
So why'd I started doing is first of all, my meet up is not used to open for a river. So they have be used to have only limited spaces and used to look at R S V P. People need to register the need to fill a form, and then I will send them the invitation. So if it is, if I doesn't know you, I will give you a chance. Okay. You are the first time person at Indy Suplee stuff. If you are not coming, you are not informing. I know who you are by your email ID and by your name. And I'm also asking your Lincoln's profile so I know very well that who you are. And after that I will just keep an eye if you are. If you are repeating this again our attendance,

spk_1:   11:22
of course. But thinking back to like the first meet up that you had the cafe Biggs. I remember my first meet up very clearly. Any was slightly awkward to from a But I I learn from it. But I want to hear about your first meet up like what was what you guys do? It's a cafe with the very first time.

spk_0:   11:43
It was very scary and very of work because now what I am is very, totally different person of what I was five years ago. I was not local. I used to have stage fears. I was not confident. So I was just going with the flow and I decided, Okay, we are going to only me and my organiser was there and I never attended any. So I was having no few. But what I plan was that I am going to do accordingly. What visit? As a developer, what I'm expecting at a meeting. So my vision was so what we did Worlds will lead a Java scrip court lap for the basics for the bigness. Sorry. And I still remember that when I was just standing in front of all the developers around there were 40 developers. I didn't even did the driver for the introduction. What I have to say, I don't even have the fifth fitting for it. Then within five min, ciders make up deputy and connected my laptop. And I was not even having a strip that what I am going to tell them. The good thing was, are the people who were there few people were very good. So they knew that we are also developer. We are doing it first time. So they also starting prosper shinning. Okay, what is meet up. Okay, why you are doing it? And so the first major was very off or not, Not even first, but first Dream becomes were way off because it was like understanding that how to be our person, how to present how to present our dominating, how to how to build that relationship with the developers who are coming because right now, after five years, my most of the networks and most of the close friends are only from so that building relationships that I learned in those three metres There were few Free backs are also got at that time. And I am very glad I got those feedback. Varia Linda, my wrist meet up journey because I was able to work on that improvement.

spk_1:   13:55
So it it was definitely sounds like it was a progressive. It is very progressive in what your meet up turned into as I can relate being t being nervous and just going with the flow you dislike. Eventually you have to just one foot in front of the other and just start something

spk_0:   14:17
right? So I never planned anything. It was just like once enough. OK? So initially I was very ambitious. I was planning, like every week and I am going to do a metre and actually that failed me Very bad. Not failed me as organiser something but it was very hectic for me because I was having a full time job and then everybody came preparing for the metre was very hard. So I learned that within miles 1st 3 metres and I was educated 111 minute out once in a month will be for inner and that I am still following.

spk_1:   14:54
I like that. I think I'm actually gonna switched attacks. I was doing it once every two weeks. I really do. You know, what I'm curious about is, like the people that are coming in the media. A lot of them are probably newer. Develop Paris in junior developers. Tran it grow. What

spk_0:   15:12
if they

spk_1:   15:12
actually come in for, like, what? Do you think they find the most value in Cana questions?

spk_0:   15:19
So there it took me a lot of time to, you know, Bill, the audience of J s nervous because every meet up has their own focus audience for meal and has started. This is also one of the learning I launched when, within one year when I started gaols levels, lot of start of people were coming because they used to think that this is a perfect platform to pitch their products. Flood of hiding people used to come because they used to think this is a perfect platform to hire people and developers. Senior developers are mid level develop as a coming for obviously that is a text meet up. They wanted to learn, and then the college kids used to come because they they were like, Let's have an experience of hanging out with the experience industry people and in palace, right to pitch for internship job. My leader problem was that being a developer, I know that if the student is coming this meat, it is not going to help because the kind of codeine and the kind of topics we are doing, they might help them for hiring. We were No. Because in past I have seen the a charge coming. Other refuted people are coming and in between the meat of they are disturbing the developers and they are trying to, you know, have a conversation undisturbed the whole metre. So it took me a while to make people understand that this is not platforms. Pitch your product. This is not a platform to hire people. This is not a place where you can get the internship. So this is focus only on developers to come learn and code with us. So initially we used to have, like, a four labs and in those port labs we used to pick any topics and we used to do the life today and at land of meat up. They used to have a working prototype of something. So developers started looking at G s hours that industry people are standing there and talking and speaking and doing the polling for their industry experience leather than the people who are just to, you know, they never worked in the industry. And they are just looking at the documentation and coming and talking. So even if we were picking on any new programming languages, we used to tell them that as a jeers, Jammeh swept developers. My experience switching to this was this And this This This was this much time I took to London. Those developers were able to relate to me. So what I found is that those are the people who are coming to jeer Servas. They know that if they are coming, they are going to learn something. Court basically hands on. And they are going to learn from the industry. People's with become a hangout place for all the industry developers coming together talking, tack, discussing and sore. So this is what they used to come for the hours.

spk_1:   18:16
Okay, so it sounds like you had also a lot of midlevel developers coming in, right? That that's interesting to you. Do you feel like they just do feel like a lot of them. So So for my experience, when I would have mid level two senior level developers come in, they would want to mentor like so meet up is very mentorship focused, and we basically have people in the industry just go around and help developers as needed. A. But a lot of middle of of the seniors they were looking to kind of give back and help. Did you experience a lot of midlevel developers looking for that out of the meet up? Or did they mainly come to just learn

spk_0:   19:02
so mentorship Think concept is not widely, people understand in India for them, for them most, even the people are coming like my clever to senior level. Senior folks are coming because they are now seniors and they are playing the roads. Role of acidic and lot of new things are coming in the industry. But because of their job, where they have to spend none of times in management in management, so they look at J. Essa was a chance where they can pick our place to understand. Okay, this this what other pros and cons of this particular technology. If I am going to use this technology, how much resources I have to use, what would be the path of teams going to learn how much time it is going to pay for the mid level people? It is more about. They used to look at the speakers as a mental that Can you please just help? If we are going to pick angular nine now, then how much time it is going to take for migration? You have any experience in that? Would it be lifetime humans to anger 90 no. So they used to directly come to the speakers or the organisation. Ask questions I buy and sing about. Mendacious is because I was also looking for for myself, um, anchor. And I saw that no one think in that respective that there could be a mentor who can help you out. Yeah, this this concept is not there. But the good thing is, in five years I have seen other developers opened up. Initially, people were very shy to ask questions, some forward, but now they are they come

spk_1:   20:42
this really it sounds like I mean, you're meet up is fully capable of helping all the way from junior to senior level developers in debts desk. Fantastic. That's hard to do. It's really

spk_0:   20:55
cool. Thank you. Yes, that now and I am talking to you am also well, anything that before where I have started and we have reached

spk_1:   21:05
Yeah, yes. Sometimes it helps to hear that even from someone else. But you know, So my you know, my focus really is help in junior developers and aspiring offers, and we we get a lot of my media. Now I have kind of noticed some parents from people come in in in a a lot of common questions, a lot of common struggles, but I cannot wanna hear your prospective on at like So when junior and aspiring developers come in where they struggling, like with bad habits, are they even bring in in? If that's what you wanna call it where you know, that's where you're spending most the time trying to hone in and help them improve? I like what are some commenting za lot of junior developers brain,

spk_0:   21:52
so they are few. Actually. The first thing is the problem with junior developed. Basically, people were just passing out colleges with every sinister their choice of programming land, which keeps changing. So they are not focusing on one thing. And I keep telling them that it's totally fine. If you are trying to learn any language to pass your service, states, 45 days know, get it over that. But once you reach to your final semester at that point, you should be able to take the decision that where you want to go, that lot of people are missing. Lot of so they they always ask me. So should I pick five Turner. Should I pick JavaScript? And I'm like, I don't know. It's you who has to the sign because you other one who will be, you know, doing coding giving interviews. Where is Joel Interest? You need to sort that out and second from sacraments, a social media destruction. So if someone is saying like on my Metre by used to say that in India, lot of developers we're not on to Initially they were only on Facebook, so I used to you know, I always used to shout on that. Please be on Twitter. These follow the developers, Please follow the community people. Which one is the place to be and then ask A few years I saw that. Now everyone is on which tweeters and now that become a social destruction for them. So if someone is saying the actives, the popular good career level ification I should go for react and am like it's now, you know, after four years you will be out of your pol. It's I don't know. After four years we are react would be so. This is the second parliament, the social destruction. They don't put their energy into right place. They should first dish need to decide which language what is their area of interest. It's backing fronton mobile or might be not programming my It could be I o t. So that thing is missing. Second pattern is our social destruction. They put Lauder five efforts in making their tweeters for followers and I keep telling them, Do not look into followers. Just keep looking into good content and it just because everyone is having a block forecast. You don't need to do you register us starting new car and the third thing is, what I have seen is that they don't know how to get the job and I can't relate with that because when I passed out by college, I also did renew that. How to make how to give the interviews. So I keep telling them that Why don't you try giving mock interviews to you know you have offences will just give interviews to each other. If you are coming to the meat of you can just, you know, say hi hello to any senior development. Just asked that that 10 days review your is can they help you in some questions? And so these other packages I have seen with developed aspiring developers But having said that, I have seen a few good developers who are very focused. They know the moment there college is gonna Paus. They have their get her profile ready. They have the Lincoln profile ready, and they have their CV also ready. So which is the most awesome and see

spk_1:   25:10
that? Yes, that that is kind of rare. That everyone is is all around prepared like that. You know, I can't even think of some the promise that you're introducing like I ice Ruggles to. So some people just have all their prepared and they are doing a lot of cold applications where they're still quoting. They're still learning, but they're in a good spot to get a position. You can tell from the work that doing. And so I struggle with convincing people to push out contact to, to ride early post and, you know, just talk about you know, how the project went like problem, that you had to solve the value that have provided for others just a little bit insight into us. A developer tackling a problem or doing a podcast or reading a book pose to creating a YouTube video. I usually do that with people that are on the later and they're learning, and they're really ready to get a job is to increase their exposure. So it's interesting that you have more people focused on because I have a hard time getting people to even write anything record anything. I wonder if that, at least in the United States, that's where that's what I found. People don't want to be visible at all this day office social media.

spk_0:   26:34
So the voting here is people want to get visible. They they are very happily have. They were very happy to do that. They would be having that blocked their website. But talking about the people who already you know, having their kids have been all this is as a senior person, like a manager, I am telling you getting nor of the issue. So I know that you deem Is there another platform today? And then you are learning a language. They are making up a project. So like Instagram clone or something like this? What these? What I have seen the common practises of they always have these project as in there. Get up now the question Towns Wellner, the hiding Team six in the engineering team six that we cannot trust If this is the court that postal has returned while following the u T. V, they have just copy pasted So that creativity of creating a new project a venue learn something is missing. So I have seen people they have very good get up. But when we are taking their interview at okay, the whole get her world basically the clone of some other oppose are you know, they just copy. So I keep telling them that once we're done with, you know and editorials try to now create something else so that when someone is reviewing your court, people would be people can trust your poor for blocks and are getting their very I have never seen anyone who would be like that. No idea of going to law game or I don't want to do forecast. In fact, I met a lot of people who are very creative in the suite, and I actually felt that at the moment I remember that there was a person who was who shared his podcast idea, and that was very, very marvellous. And I was like, I was very excited for that. And I was like, Okay, when you are planning to do it, I really wanted to be part of that. If you need. People here are very much into the since

spk_1:   28:33
That's amazing. I always shake it, instil some of that. I do get like app. First, stop focusing on stuff, focusing on the distractions to put your head down, learn and I work and I I completely get so I This is really interesting because you are actually answering questions that I get my meet up and it's really interesting hearing your perspectives. I get a couple questions like common moons I wanna throw at you. One of the 1st 1 is as a new developers. However, I figure out what kind of project a bill and like that's a major question like they just get stuck there learning. But they don't really know what to build to put on their portfolio with vice

spk_0:   29:17
mother. So I always tell them that do not try to impress anyone tried to great whatever you know right now. And then it would be, you know, a basic our website, a basic, very basic website. And then slowly, slowly, as you are moving ahead, you can start adding new new features. The reason why I keep saying this by I always advise is sorry, because then when they are speaking in the interview, they can show the company the post in the Who is taking interview. Their progression that I started with the same and then slowly solution only when I started for my learnings we're increasing. I reached to this level so bad code of that kind of journey. If they would be able to showcase from their project, that will be. The first thing is to oversee, to have your on website. We our own block rather than having it on, gets fee WordPress or lost part like that. That would be amazing. Second project I always 10 thing to, you know, play around with Responsive, understand Mobil's and everything to make a final. Any up could put work so it could be, you know, guess a movie name our guess a picture name on something like this. The reason. Because when you are sitting in the instagram and talking with prospective of how a person who is having such kind of projects when they are sitting in front of interviewer how they can handle that situation when they are the showcasing their resume and project in front of persons, they can tell them that can go right away on your mobile and type this website, and this is what I have made it. So that would be a more funds kind of conversation where the person can also look into can have a more discussion based on that application.

spk_1:   31:10
So you really encourage people to have fun with projects that they are they're building. Don't don't overthink it don't have for someone else just just do what you're learning like build something find, inhabit, incorporate what you're learning at the time

spk_0:   31:26
exactly. So I remember there was someone who actually took a challenge that everyday am gonna bill something on website. So there is a dedicated website Where that that ready? Asked the showed for 30 days. I think she did. Every day she actually build a website with whatever she knows. So she has, like 30 website everyday Shin was shipping enough and that in itself become a huge so something like that. This is what I feel that instead of it's going through what others are doing It would be best to go through what you know and have your own unique parts. Who which you can show your learning journey also. And you will also feel proud that you actually get something unique.

spk_1:   32:16
Yeah, that that's fantastic advice. So you couple things you you mentioned when you do host your websites when you do ex special in you hosted content like your blah gear was two spokes on the block you had mentioned. Don't host a number and pressed hosted on your own site which I've been thinking you met your own domain. Your own server. Why is that?

spk_0:   32:42
The reason is, if so, hosting your website means if you don't have your own domain, it's fine. You are students by be or not having that much final sheeting. Financial So which is fine, but it needs to cane deployed on next If I'd so the Liza is that the If I am hiding and I am having interview, I can understand that this person actually build everything from scratch and then took that whole court and deployed it on some sour, which actually speaks about the dedication with press and all. It is all about this following the instructions, and I always I always believe that to finish a side project, the last 20% is the most hardest. So if a person is able to push their whole side project our website or block to unlikely fire some sour, it means that person is having a bird dedication.

spk_1:   33:41
I didn't even take of that. I really like that. I do think deployment is something that you're like any developers going to touch eventually, that's that's a good you know, I was coming at it with the type of maybe to be able to control that CEO value and be able to have more control and how you market. It's true. Like a lot of developers avoid deployment. They especially front, and they're scared back and they're scared at appointment.

spk_0:   34:09
So if you Well, if someone is coming to me as aspiring developer and showing me the neck Cliff I r early rears always has all deployed website their project. So for me, one of the pushing would be value decided sacrifice. So I would love to hear that. Is that person did a research before moving the whole court to notify are not and probably I would be asking. Okay, notifies cloud. So what? What are your thoughts on these small things is automatically keeping that pressure, you know, apart from the keeping it apart from the rest of the class. Because rest of the crowd this Duke even thought of deploying their projects on somewhere by the person who actually part and did that. Obviously, lot of brownie points

spk_1:   34:57
you have. So the I agree with So you have another question just cut up, hopped over my head right now for someone you had mentioned. A computer science degree is an option or some sort of degree is an option. There also boot camps. But there is also a lot of self time because I think a lot of people are in the financial show opposition to go double camper, get a college degree. So while people are trying to teach themselves, which is what is amazing things about this profession is if you have good habits, you can you can do that and you can get a position. So for people that are trying to teach themselves in the China will and there is so much like there is so many different avenues to go down. And at the end of the day, I remember when I was tried to teach myself for about a year and 1/2 before when Tabouk it, I didn't I didn't have any goals at in every benchmarks. I don't know what my goal should be to get a position in. So dozens of resources in Frana me as well as that was cut is really confusing and overwhelming. So for someone that is going to self taught row and they ask you, how should I go about learning development? Where should I learn what kind of advice would you give them?

spk_0:   36:15
So this is one of the most ask questions I doing over the weekend, one on one or not one on one, basically open discussion about technologies and also did in my past, one on one with many so lot of people, not just the aspiring developers. Even the experience develop other concerns. Like if I talk about myself, there was a time when I was having the subscription of every possible course websites tutorial website, and one day I actually thought that what I am doing am not able to finish anything. So I remember when I started my career at that time there was no such so many social destruction, so they will only one or two website, So I was able to focus this time the thing which I implemented on the strict. The trick I implemented on myself the same thing. I tell everyone that first try to understand what kind of person you are visiting. What kind of student you are. You are more of like who would prefer to learn through book and content are you are a more of person who would like to learn through videos. So first tried to identify that. Like I'm much, I am more kind of bookish person. I need my loads books handy and lost to make no south of that. Once you are done with that, then go like I tried to have a mix of both. Now, because technology keep changing, books are outdated. So what I do is now I have a mixture before purchasing any any course. First I go on new, too. I tried to look into the big nurse videos I try to understand and try to code if I am able to fix that or not, Analysts are not comfortable with that. I don't for chase any course once I'm done with that small POC and am able to understand. And a good thing is on YouTube, Laura Slee and good content is I. I don't advise anyone that this YouTube channel is poor or back. YouTube channel is bored because I feel that every person has own way of learning. They have their own prefer way of grasping the knowledge from the person who is teaching. So I always tell them that you used me to go and explore bios. It's once that is done. Then I decided that. Okay, So let me buy you Demi courts A Let me go to some other, but very strictly for myself and for other. Also just stick to one saying, Do not being four tempted that Okay, let me buy this also because our that critical site at his count is going on like with claps that also don't do that. So this is my funda that first understand you are a book person or you are a video persons can go explore on you do, if you are able to understand that, are not Once you're done with that, you have been some basic. Then go and just buy one book for one course and try to finish that That's it.

spk_1:   39:10
Like like that narrow focus because I think that trap a lot of people get in his day of three different courses are trying to finish and different bill three different APS and you can get really confusing. Aso also thought it was interesting that you recommend any specific YouTube channels. Amos like the idea of getting them to explore first while the heat is learning at a look. Things up. Google's gonna be the best friend as a developer anyway. So just really trying to explore an and figure out like what's out there? It's, I think that's really good advice.

spk_0:   39:47
Also, what the one of the reserve. I also don't still recommend any YouTube channel is because India is a very big country and the people who are coming me English might be not their native man. Basically, Indian English is not anyone's taking, so they have their own regional. Um, so I feel that if someone is not comfortable having the contents in English, so if same tutorial available in their native language, that would be awesome thing. That another thing, which I always try to explain other people that you know you need to go buy yourself an explosive and try to understand it's that the person who is the speaker in that video are you able to understand or not? If not, then you can switch to another speaker.

spk_1:   40:33
That's true. Yeah, I think that's really good advice. We I think in the United States we take that for granted. We don't really get a question like because it said almost all English. We do have some We have some foreigners that to calm and, you know, that's a question I never asked. Like language. Are you most comfortable learning Friday? I don't even think it's a really good question. Also gonna go into my next question. So you got

spk_0:   41:04
so I was deciding for the regional armaments. So this is one of the thing which I learned while doing Pick up that sometimes and the speakers are coming on the platform. So I push lot of first time speaker. I am like, um, that kind of person that it's finally of first times people. If you are really passionate, I will have to in whatever the possible ways. And I always tell them that. See, if you're not comfortable in giving session in English, it's fine, even urinated. Manage. We are a tributary five and I have seen in my experience while conducting such meetups when the speakers moved to their native language and that kind of metre becomes very successful, very interactive, and when I am saying successful, it means lot of interaction is happening in such kind of mediums. So I always promote that whenever you get the junk, do the meet ups in unity.

spk_1:   41:57
Okay, like the Elect and I really like that. So awarded developers are getting jobs. It's It can be very saturated at the entry level. Why

spk_0:   42:10
do you

spk_1:   42:10
feel like a lot of developers are getting jobs? What you feel like a lot of developers feel like they should be getting jobs in just er falling short.

spk_0:   42:19
And so the problem is in India, basically, the days a gap, what we learned during our colleges during our degree and when and what industries expecting. There's a huge gap. And the good thing is, now these two girls are trying to fill that gap, but still they are not 100% ready for that. When the companies are hiding, they don't expect a person, you know, to be of all rounders. Expectation from those and trail led, um, world developers is always that they should know their basics well, and I think they are. Our aspiring developers get trapped. They assumed that they need to know Everest him about every every technology, which was not true. They should be focusing on the basics and once they are, basics are good solid enough then they should have the second thing is communication skills. I have seen lot of developers don't have the confidence communication. They have very good in scoring, but they can't hold the conversation. A I keep taking interviews. I have seen that obviously, they are not going to ask you to, you know, talk about any topic for like, a debate kind of thing. It is just you need to give interaction and explain the kind of the work you have. So these other two places where I have seen they are not actually shot fall of the first year of they assumed that need to be no, a master of everything. Just have your basic strike that would do the job. You get up should speak about yourself, not about the kind of forces you have, the police and the 13 years you should be able to do the communication well and confidence should be there.

spk_1:   44:12
I I think such skills are very underestimated. I think he really honed in on I. You know, I would say probably about 20% of the people that show up to my media, probably of the technical skills to get their position and really like there's so many of the components really comes down to resume the cover letter like, Are they personalising it? Does it have anything to do to show the value that bringing to the specific company, the energy has a girl like a lot of people want to be right in every single question and they forget like what that interviews about? It's It's to give exposure of who you are is person is a developer might have fun with the interview if you disliked sitting there all claimed up. And you Are you not really talking with the interviewer, I almost feel like you need to go into with the just, like have firm with there. But I think a lot of interviewers are looking like Do I want to work with this person? If if you can answer that question with confidence that they would want to work with you, everyone can be the best version of themselves. You just might have to work on some habits that I bring into the interview and sometimes some fence. It even is displayed. Getting over that nervousness like, Okay, I'm going to go into this first interview I am really excited by. Chances are you're probably going to fail it. If it's your very first interview and you're gonna learn a lot from it, maybe you get the position. That's awesome. But can you go into it with just have been fine Learning about the industry, talking with the interviewer in just learning something new? I think I I do take the sauce skills, and that kinda prospective is very large with people.

spk_0:   45:59
Also, I will tell you that when I become manager and I will support to hire for my team. So I was very scared because before that, I used to just give a technical feedback. This dispersant is good or not technical and and my seniors used to do the attitude and the soft contesting interviews and all. But now everything was on me. So my manager and my director, they told me, You know, technical skill is something you can change anyone but us, but the attitude but confidence. This is something which a person brings by himself or houses to. You need to look for that first, but that is an in you need to compromise on technical scheme. But if a person is very good in attitudes of skills, complications. Fools. Then please try to, you know, have that person on the culture. The question you just said that do I should do I want to work with that developer. This is the moves. This is actually the last question every interval is gonna ask to insult for ourselves. And the answer of that is, if the person is will go in doing the communication during the interview and the confidence and wife that person is bringing. Sadly, I have seen developers who are very good technically, but they can't hold the conversation. And on the other hand, we are people who are not as good as in technology. But they are very good in, you know, having the fun in the interviews, able to put there basically to do a healthy discussion. And that speaks a lot about that.

spk_1:   47:39
Yeah. Yeah, they, um So whether you got the opportunity to be able to really be able to see all that has just a technical and you're also looking for the soft skills you're also looking for the communication as a a really important decision. A B M. I am glad to get to experience. If it's that's amazing. I you know, altitude is too. So it's so important. But it's very hard to teach. You know, A lot of people and raining there pass with them. They bring even to surpass experiences with last jobs with neighbouring baggage With them minutes. I think technical skills are easier to teach in there. You can learn, um, a lot quicker than you can of getting rid of all bad habits. Takes a lot longer in in. Really, You can do that in college. See, this is where, like, I don't think you need a computer science degree to get a position as a development. I think it helps, but you don't need it. And I think I think what you really can learn even in a bouquet pan. Ecologists like working with others on a team and being able to be open to feed back and not take things personal and like, really take code reviews constructive and just feel the communicate. You can build all of these habits up before you even starts like really working and your portfolio, and diving deep into a specific language by your attitude is so incredibly important. I wish more people will really understand that. Take ownership of it?

spk_0:   49:12
Definitely so every manager means having Gotti Day always looked. If Anna you person is ongoing, the team, the culture should remain as it is. In fact, it should go more positive. Way for new person is so Vienna. This is what I have seen that whenever a new person is joining, that is Oliver's about is that person is emerge? Wanna culture or not? Is that person is able to threaten our in our culture? And that's where now am able to understand why in have we job description retails pension that the person should be a team player and the person should able to culturally spit in the organisation. Initially, I used to when I was a senior level of the values to say these things are just But now when I moved to manager level nine, link the team. Now I understand that how crucial these things are

spk_1:   50:02
I can hear in your voice. I think you gave really good advice with you know where we're in a really weird time. Raina, right? So Cove in 19 is spreading. It's unfortunate, and I think we get a lot of doom and gloom in the news in there are a lot of things that we should be doing to can prevent the spread of the virus. But I I want to focus on the positives of what we still can't write as developers. First ball Cos isto hiring right All the companies are still hiring. They're more open to promote positions. And, you know, at the end of the day, those from opposition's can turn into in person once we beat. So, like they're still like, I feel like I still wanna see people moving forward with development in learning, anchoring Visa can't that opportunity. But it it just it's different, right? It looks a little bit different right now, so I cannot want to dive into that. So you know, when people are asking like, woman, get to the topic of networking. How do I get my face out there? Harrowing. Meet the right people. Meet ups were really good option for that in person. They really where they were fantastic and reach not and linked in, you know, even just being willing to buy coffee for someone at the company that you really want to work for. Just getting a little feel for, you know, And then if if that person really like your personality, you know that thing kind of start like filtering at a cultural fits just during that conversation a little bit. So it was pretty valuable meeting with someone, and now we can't really do that. So what? I still think networking is powerful even in these tights. How can we go about like, let's talk about, like online networking and what that looks like? How do you How do you feel Like Woody Philip developers can be doing right now to still build up their network and connect with the right people when they're trying to get their first position.

spk_0:   51:58
So the good thing what happened is, though it's whatever is happening in around us because of oval. It's very unfortunate. But as you mentioned, everyone went remote. Now everyone is open their calendar to have the discretion with followed at the post. So I have seen that so many senior folks opened up their calendars that anyone who wants to, you know, just have a conversation are just They just want to talk about anything. It's just come and just hang up. So please utilised that opportunity. If I talk about me, Emma's very senior position still am doing that. So what? Andrew Indians? Whenever I see and off, whenever I see em set up any person who open their calendars, I try to reach. And with them it's not necessary under stopping about technical stuff as a stock about anything. So, for example, Ephram meeting you as well, which is talking about safety doing houses, how you are doing what are your hobbies? And also this is how you start building the relationship. It's not always about talking about your do me. Sometimes relationships also start with off topics also. So the first thing is, please utilises Twitter, lengthen. People are all over. So do that Second Hager's I. I have seen this because I am also doing a lot of online session people hesitant in turning on camera. I am also kind of that person because we are relaxing at four. We can sit in our feeders and just work by. It is very good if you are trying to have a conversation with someone, turn on your camera that start building a relationship, and that talks a lot about so if for aspiring developer is reaching to me, you know, just to say hi, hello and our initial conversation. If that person is turning on the camera for me, Malaysia, that person is so positive he, he or she really wanted to have this whole conversation to be feel like in person. So please do that also, and right now everyone is at home. So this is the right time to financial small side projects. But having said that and that kind of person like small way say that work is work, but you need to enjoy and relax your personalised. So that doesn't mean you have 24 7 front of power system. Take a break, bill some other hobby and start publishing that on your social and people will start coming to you. Bios.

spk_1:   54:32
I really like that, I think, and I think there's a sense of have feeling trapped. But sometimes it's just, I think, to get over the feeling it's just doing something different, taken a break from what you're doing, even if it's like getting up. Maybe take a hobby is cooking you can, but, like Do is something different in shifting their minds. Searches to give your mind a break. I I think that's really the You know, I didn't realise so many people were open ahead of those conversations due to the Cove in 90. That's really cool. The here.

spk_0:   55:08
Yeah, I actually did so far. Four sessions with different different people in large 12 3 weeks. So 30 30 minute session for 4 to 5 people. I am able to do it. I didn't knew them before. I just saw that they opened their calendar and I just on the twitters on highest stumble on their profile. I just followed them. I blocked their calendar. However, I am also doing the same thing. I also want my 40 minutes every weekend. Just have discuss about anything. You know, a lot of

spk_1:   55:42
people I notice on media. Specifically, a lot of important people are just first will meet ups. Very supportive of online events. Ring in, which is really cool. Meet up is like a lot of meat ups are still hosting, but it's desperate oats in there. Some challenges with trying to have the same type of meat up in person as you do remote. Bye. They are happened and they are they're very, very open in support of developers still growing in this stag night. Think that's amazing? So I would encourage, like even just from your advice and it really so many senior developments were really open to that. Maybe, just, like, reach out and and have that Congress cessation. I really like the advice of Turn on your camera, right? Like you can still try to make it seem personable, like it would be

spk_0:   56:33
a good

spk_1:   56:33
person. And it shows a little bit of commitment in seriousness and shown that, like you, really, you wanted to be a good experience for the other person. You value their time a relic in message.

spk_0:   56:46
So we always say in our meetings, So we have few removed, available join. So we always say that if you whenever someone opened their camera, we were like, Oh, finally, we have a face to this name. So far, weather's looking at the name only. Same thing. Same thing goes further. This digital world like U N are connected was first time I didn't turn on my camera knighting. I I don't know when I turned on my camera. Now we are sitting, so we are accused able to you Are you on Are able to associate my face with my name So these things are very important. Smalling's but very important.

spk_1:   57:23
Yes, I completely agree. And it is It really does make a big difference. I So I say, like you've been fantastic. I I couldn't find a piece of advice that I disagreed with you. Like you actually have really, really good advice. You're experienced shows. I mean, you give definite grown a lot over the past three years since I talked to you in. It's fantastic. I think what you're doing is really, really good for a lot of people. So what I want to do in don't feel any pressure. But I want to if you Because this was a lot of meat asking you questions, I would give you the opportunity. Do you have any questions for me? You don't need to have any.

spk_0:   58:06
Yes, but I do have so I want to define it yet. So I wanted to understand y'all experienced what I was doing off lying new We're doing online. You have Bill your whole channel, whole community online. And I remember when I reach you, you were at that time helping developers online that if someone wants me to review their court, their projects, you open your calendar at so how was your experience? What were your challenges and what keep you motivated to, you know, keep doing all the states.

spk_1:   58:44
It's a really good question. So I am a big believer. You do have tickets, efforts, position, and I think your initial push for becoming a developer is to learn the technical skills, get report fully already network a little bit and give referees position. Now, what I found was, if I only do development and I just go to work in my coat, I get burned out of coding, and I thought I needed a break when I did when I tried. Okay. After I get home, I'm going to work on my own project. I am going to help people in my own way. When I started doing things that that were outside of work that were different, I I am a president, like I feel good when I get back. It's a good flowing again. I don't know how to explain it, but if I if I'm not doing that, I don't feel good about what I'm doing, so I actually have to put more hours outside of work to do these online projects to do that. So I started the meet up in Chicago. It's why I do live streams. I do wide coding streams. I Q and A's. That's where Does it feel like work to me? I really love doing that because and when I did, that is so when I did 40 hours work and 20 hours of online stuff house and burned out is really weird I to put more time into it from me not to be burned out. So that's why I do all of the online things, right? Do I? Also? I'm an entrepreneur at hard. I started a Web hosting company when I was 18 has a long time ago and, like I just like creating ideas in getting them out there and providing value to others. I like idea all the way to getting it. Who watched Idol of the whole product Weiss cycle, and I get to control that when I create events, sunlike is when you're working for an employer, you know it needs to meet the business objectives. You know, your eyes. Get a line in. You have limitations on the autonomy of what you can create. What you can do, what you push out there. So, you know, my online presence is me doing what I was able to do my development positions in. It's it's gone really, really well. I've learned a lot over the years and, you know, online is a different different thing entirely. I'm someone that is very vocal, and I sometimes I just don't sugarcoat things. And when I say that I get a lot of support. But I had learned very quickly that there are destro ls and comments that are constructive, that I gotta push past. And so that, honestly is probably one of my challenges is because I am so vocal when I really believe in our passion about something I get. Sometimes pushback is really constructive. The Internet is also full of trolls and people that just when argue so you know, that's a challenger. Comes with the territory by I've done it. Twitch, meet up YouTube. This podcast is someone starting. I don't think much of a writer. I don't They can get a read a black that by I'd love recording. I like this raw conversation. It's it's fund from it. But it is pretty much kind of where my online present stumps from

spk_0:   1:2:04
so I can connect with you are because you a passionate about this and you are not feeling one out. Pneumonia putting so much effort. Same with may people keep still. People keep telling me that when you get time, how you get time, keep doing so many things. And I don't know, I have this I just enjoyed. And when you love something, you never feel that over a while, you know, one hour or I am not doing this. That's test two and action, while follow pushing was about pros only. That because that you perfectly mentioned that when you are to local, when you are putting yourself out on the social media, you will be getting lot of hate commence and everything. How you handle that? In past, I had a lot of such hate comments. Not lot of ever push back some I would not liable because of people fail intact. People who have that image that female can do some can do, can do cheque and all that things Bye how initially it was for me was very, very hard, very hard. I have my own way of handling those things, but I want to understand from you that how you handled such a very hard hate comments in trials coming

spk_1:   1:3:23
year, that there is a hard thing. You know, it's something I'm still honing in on and China improve because I know, like so just to give you context, I quit my development position to do this full time to really parliament business. Work on my own projects, get a pricing I know out and push those out and continue helping developments. This is what I'm doing. So I had going into this. I was like one of my very first starts is as I grow, I'm going to get a lot more. He get a lot more trolls. How may get a deal with this. So

spk_0:   1:3:54
one thing that

spk_1:   1:3:55
I like I used to, foreseeable, I still kinda take it personally. So it's still something on battling, and I I just have to work to those emotions sometimes. But one thing that's really helped me is what I used to do was I would think about how I'm going to respond, and I would think about how am going to react if I am going to react in. So it was more of me, like when it happens less d'oh in what ended up happening was when it would happen, I would deal with the bar. I would get so stressed. I I would feel like, you know, I would like to comment ruin the rest of my day and I would feel like obliged to respond. They're black, the person. And my action was as concerning as my like motion for rail link For the the fact that I let someone that I don't even know affect mind hired a was ridiculous to me. So then what I started doing was I gonna be proactive about this? I like it's all about perspective. When I see that message it's all about you know, how I see life, Haraway see prompts that come up in life and how do I do with them? But it starts with having it like a really positive perspective. So I started, like doing a lot more cardio in meditating in, like, really getting my mind set into more grounded minds. I think when I did that, then I would see one of those comments in a win effect. Me Look, it will ruin my whole day. And then I could actually logically think about Okay, sure. I responded. This how my gonna respond to this? But as I was thinking about it, that a motion was no longer attached and that's what got me. Security was being proactive in, like getting a more grounded home mindset. The things that's how I deal with. How about you?

spk_0:   1:5:49
So same experience initiative. And I was getting, like, lot of hate comments, trawls When I started meet up and whenever I was doing something, there were movement. When people were coming on my meet up and on the face, they were telling that they are just coming to see how a female can do attic Metre. So I never heard these things before, so I was having I was totally blank zone out. What should How should I react? I don't know, and only one has started doing meet up 10 not of people realise me. And then only I was able to understand that yesterday's of very big problem in tech industry, with female well apart before that I never French that or maybe an m a reliance that because I was too much in my job and I don't know, it hurted me a lot. There were movements when I wanted to quit because of I was not expecting anything from anyone who is coming from. I was not even charging them anything. But in return it's the people were giving so much eight hours. What open? I don't want to do it. Likely how I changed my perspective in my strains. Who told They told me that if they don't like coming to your meet up, if they are not liking your emails, they can simply you know, a block. You why you are, you know, wasting your time energy on such cases you are doing with for your sins. If you are enjoying, then it's fine. And then I changed with respective either started focusing only on the people who are gaining up profits, you know, gaining something out of me and from while flags, my meet ups and all and the people who are not liking them I was like, Okay, fire heat. Okay, there Hundreds of others peepers meet up she can just for their It's five. It's I don't It's okay now, the same thing. I am doing what you are doing minus cardio. So whenever any government or something is coming idol, he act at all. I don't even even further to reply to that comment because my sinful Indians and never asked to come here. You came by your choice. And now if I didn't even ask you for any money or something. Aye, So it you don't have any right to comment, Lee, if you wanted to give me a constructive feedback, very happy for a set and discussed with you. But if your state probably wanna say something very sorry, I am not up further, so I don't now I don't even react. I only will reach such but to be very honest, it's very hard price. It's very hard, like what you are doing. Keep saying you I have seen other people who is putting lot of good content out and helping developers, but in return is people are not respecting the it's very hard.

spk_1:   1:8:38
It is. Yeah, it's never waver. Humans are always gonna feel emotion we can ever escape. That's true I think you had a really good mindsets of. You should be focused on helping people that your help. You can't help everyone. There is people that, like, quite frankly, and I think it's disgusting but don't respect you because you're female intact and that is a reality. And I think it's a really crappy reality by some people are very ignorant. And so you only have so much energy in a day. Do waste your energy and someone that is ensuring that. And but I can't I can't speak to what it's like to be a female in Tak, obviously. But you know, we do have a lot of women that become warm Iraq, and I I hear about this. But like you, it sounds like the positions that you've been in. The culture was positive. It was constructive towards females, and I think that's really key, even like they're gonna be a lot of women going in attack. That might face that sort of discrimination. And, you know, it's easy for me to say this. It's harder to do, but really you have to learn to just say no to a company. If you feel like you know they're not gonna be open to a female in Tech if they're very old in their times and they haven't really like, they're just ignorant. You know, I think there are a lot of brilliant women out there that have the skills and they just need to find there are tonnes of cos they just need to make sure that the company's good fit for them as well, you know, like they have a lot of value to bring by. Yeah, you know, it's even just getting off of females being disrespected in tak. Some people, just quite frankly, developers can be can quirky and a little antisocial. Sometimes, you know, we're behind computers all day. We're not necessarily in front of people, so we're going to get a lot of weird condiments. We're gonna get a lot of anti social behaviour and some That's disrespectful. Summit we worked. Um, but at the end of the day, like, this is how I see you have so much energy, put it towards the people that you can help. If you're spending an entire day trying to really get someone to come around and be respectful in an interview and like you spend an entire day trying to change their person. When you can put you could help five of the people that are almost there that are listening to use that are open a feedback. Sometimes you have to decide, like, who who do you need to put your time into? You need to put your time in the people that care what you have to say that you can impact as we can change. Everyone can impact everyone. Some people, they just need to take the longer road and figure that out for themselves and put the energy towards the people that are ready for your feedback. It's a weird and so where's by B m pressure

spk_0:   1:11:37
and yeah, it is. But we are still here. Also, I think that speaking a lot about our attitudes,

spk_1:   1:11:45
yes, so completely agree. I obviously I I love the audience is like I said, I don't have anything to disagree with. I wish I would've found something to disagree with, but honestly, I think what you're doing is really good. A guys and women. If he have already cheque out J servers and need up, it's It's a very large meet up and what they turned it into their their help and a lot of people. So I cheque our meet up. It's It's fantastic, even just the content she's producing. I, like people are really loving it. You can see from all the responses, so definitely cheque it out when you get a chance. But I just want to say thanks much for coming out of the podcast. I really appreciate you come in on. And it was a really fun conversation.

spk_0:   1:12:34
Thank you so much for inviting me. I also enjoyed it. Thank you.