June 6, 2022

Why You Should Consider Becoming an Email Developer | Required: Basic HTML and CSS Knowledge


If you're interested in breaking into tech with a coding position, have you considered an email developer position? The minimum you have to learn is much less than a traditional software engineering position and apparently, it pays pretty well. I invited on Ivan, an email developer that's been doing this for a while to share what he thought about this path. We dove into what the day-to-day is like, as well as really helpful advice for those that might want to pursue this. Enjoy!

Ivan Hurt (guest):
Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/c/IvanHurt

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Transcript

Don Hansen:

Welcome back to another podcast episode where we help aspiring developers get jobs and junior developers grow. So I'm actually starting a bit of a new series where I want to jump into coding, adjacent positions, and just other positions that aren't like traditional front end back end engineer, and kind of just see what they're like, what it takes to get into them. Are they a stepping stone into more traditional positions? Or, you know, like what what's the day-to-day like, you might find that some of these other positions that you have. Get into, when you do learn how to code, maybe you enjoy them. So, uh, for the first, this is actually the first episode of this series. Um, we're going to be diving into what it takes to become an HTML email developer and what it's like to even be one. So I've been, I appreciate you coming on. You're uh, my first Guinea pig. Uh, but yeah, thanks for coming on. Thank you. So, um, let's dive into it. Uh, first of all, before, actually, before we do, who are you? You want to talk a little bit about your.

Ivan Hurt:

Sure. Um, I'm not the traditional person who be, uh, in web development. I was originally a PC tech for 20 years, but, um, I had some health issues, so I had to take a desk job and. Um, after I had heart surgery, I landed a job as a web content editor. And then, um, I got sick of doing that. So I decided to take a job as a email developer. Um, I kind of accidentally fell into email development. Okay.

Don Hansen:

Yeah, you've been with email development for a while now. So something caught your interest with it.

Ivan Hurt:

Um, to be honest with you, was it wasn't money? Okay. Around the same time that I had heart issues, um, a friend of mine down in Texas, um, he was a trucker and he wanted to get into web development. So while I was. Uh, webmaster. He went into, he learned HTML CSS, and he landed his first job as a email developer two years. And he was making six figures and we were talking and he said, you have to get into this. He just honestly say it, listen, you have to, you have to become email developer because. I was trying to become a front end developer and I still struggle with JavaScript, but he's like, you already have the skills to do this. Um, you know, he's CML, you know, CSS work or if a marketing department for marketing department. And if I can do this, you could do this. So. Um, he, we both were watching a YouTube channel online and I bought a course, an email course on, um, he CML email development. And when I bought that course, it, the gentleman walked me through how to become a HTML email developer. And almost essentially, he taught you how to create emails on what projects you needed, um, what software you needed, which was Photoshop after that in the evenings. Um, in my current job, I went on five or, and started applying the skills and. I wanted to make sure when I applied for my first email developer position, even though I had experience as a webmaster or web content developer, I didn't have any email experience. So I did about 25 jobs, got a couple of good positive reviews. Like most of them were like four out of five stars, but all of the reviews were good. So I had experienced. Um, when I also apply, I also started a blog where I started talking about email development and my journey. So when I applied for my first position, even though I had no experience, I had a blog talking about email, develop it. I had some experience. I built a couple of emails for small businesses. Um, antelope and Philadelphia area was a coffee shop and a beer company. Both of them declined it. They liked the design, but they're like anything went with somebody else. But I still had that in my portfolio and by them being real businesses, when I went to the interview, I just told them they went with another designer. They looked at them, they were responsive. But they just went with somebody else's eye. They thought it was better. I took about maybe two to three months to learn all the skills and I started blinding and I kept going, no one would call me. Um, but I kept on applying. Um, I went to Google and I did an email alert for email developer, remote job. Um, email developer jobs in my area. And every day I was just checking to see what email job, email developer jobs I could get. And I applied to them all. I didn't care if I had experienced or not. I didn't care if they said I had 10 years experience, because one of the things I've learned about applying for jobs, they have ridiculous require that. Like this, some jobs they'll be like, oh, you need to know JavaScript, react Python, and really to be an HTML email developer, nine times out of 10, you're using HTML and inline CSS. You're not even putting your CSS and a separate file like you would do if you did front end development. Um, and I'll explain that a little bit later, but, um, I kept on a plane. Um, I saw a job on Craigslist, um, and that thought it was a little bit sketchy, but I did some research. They were a real company and believe it or not, I got my first job through Craigslist, which was weird. Weird. Like it was a hundred percent remote position and the salary was pretty much what I was making at my other job, but it was a hundred percent remote and talk to the company. They they're a little bit weird. They're digital design agents. And they did a lot of emails for like, uh, Android developer apps, um, authors like small businesses. And what they would do is every month I would get like a two gig file with like images for like maybe 50 to a hundred campaigns that were going to run throughout that mall. And essentially what I would do is I would just. They gave me, um, the L templates and I would just build them, upload them to, um, email service provider, like MailChimp, uh, a Weber there's one that begins with a K that I can never pronounce. I butcher it. Um, Salesforce, uh, for some of the bigger companies that were using that. See campaign monitor. So that gave me a lot of experience doing email development, our first job. And also it allowed me to learn about marketing because I just wanted to know how they were making their money. So I kind of learned. The marketing aspect, which helped me later on down the line. We're freelancing. Okay.

Don Hansen:

Disposition that was at Craigslist is a salary position where you still freelancing on the side while you were doing it?

Ivan Hurt:

No. Okay. Um, when I got the position, it was, it was. To pay me a yearly salary. So every month I got paid now, like my first job, I make it a little bit about 50. They paid me about 52 K give or take 55. Like it was, it was enough to keep me going. Um, I said, I thought they were sketchy, but. They took taxes out that were registered with the state. Um, everything was above board. Like even though it was on credit glassy, it was a legit company. And after I worked there for a year, um, then I went to another digital design agency cause I wanted to get some more experience. Um, there was a company in Jersey, so that made me an offer. Um, it was a salary position. Um, the reason I took that one that is honestly elephant sharks. Um, with my other position, I was paying health insurance out of the pocket and they had better benefits.

Don Hansen:

Okay. So. Did you was the first one, sorry. Remind me again. Was the first one, like agency work or was it for a company at a product?

Ivan Hurt:

Um, both jobs were digital agencies and what I mean by digital agencies? Um, my first job. Um, they did stuff for like Android developers, authors, the second company in New Jersey. Um, they were also a digital agency and most of their work was for casino. Um, I am in another position now where it's, um, I am a Salesforce email developer, and in that position I work for. Uh, financial institution and they send out emails through Salesforce marketing cloud, and it's the same skills, but I'm doing more for their corporate marketing department where they have monthly campaigns that they send out to different customers. And. Salesforce marketing cloud is an enterprise level, email marketing system. And with that you make more money. Um, you do have to go through some training, which I paid for myself last year, and that allow me to allow play that. And my day to, in any of these physicians, let's hold

Don Hansen:

up on the day-to-day. I got a few questions before we jump into it. I actually got a lot of questions. Um, so with specifically with, um, so feel free to say if you don't want to share it, but with Fiverr, you mentioned, you think you did about like 25 jobs. Did you have like a total revenue that you recorded towards the.

Ivan Hurt:

I think it was about like maybe 750. Might've been a grant. Um, I'll be honest with you the way I did Fiverr. I do not recommend anyone do, unless you're getting less, you're looking for a job. Okay. Because I charged the lowest amount possible because here's the deal with fiber fiber is, um, it's about price. And if you have, if you're starting out, you have C ROIC, you have zero ratings, zero jobs on Fiverr. You have to offer your services very cheaply. And I was afraid. I'll build an email to, for you for five to 10 bucks. I eventually moved up to like 30 and 50, but like the first let's say. 10 15 jobs for like five to 10 bucks. Then I got a couple of other jobs where I was able to charge like a hundred bucks, 50 bucks. But when you mine, coal was not about the money. I had a weird strategy, which was since I had no experience in this, I need to have some social proof. And to me, a portfolio, like not portfolio. I go alive, but I know now people want to see proof of some type that worked and fiber was the easiest way to do it. Um, I tried Upwork and I did do like maybe two or three jobs on Upwork, but on Upwork I have to fill out a job proposal every time. And I really wasn't trying to do that. With Pfeiffer, you just create a port, you create a gig. And once you create the gig people, their algorithm or whatever it is, we'll look at it. Spatially. If you knew they kind of promote you a little bit more until they realize you have no bias hiring nobody. Hiring you because your price was probably too high. So I just put a low price that it's like, Hey, you have five to 10 bucks. Take a chance on me. That was, that was my whole purpose. You I've got five to 10 bucks, take a chance on me. And people were like, other people on the platform were charging 25 50 and let's give this guy shot. Like, what am I doing? I believe they have a refund policy, so you get your money back. But my whole purpose was before I applied for the job, I wanted to have social proof and Fiverr was the easiest way to be like on my resume. I wrote thing. Kurt emails. And I listed myself as a contractor and I put freelance web freelance email developer on Fiverr. And during the interview they asked me and I told them, go to fiber, look me up. And they saw my social proof. It was right there.

Don Hansen:

So that's a really creative strategy and I love it. I honestly do like the initiative to do something like that. Um, cause like you said, you're not doing it essentially for the additional income because you had a price at Lowe's for social proof. You know, when I talk to people and I even give advice, I usually recommend, I want to hear your opinion about this, but I usually recommend people that are going into the like traditional front end or back end development stay away from freelancing, especially in the beginning, because usually the complexity of the projects that you get initially, people don't really, you don't have that social proof yet. Right? So you're not getting very challenging and complex projects to grow as a software engineer. Um, I feel like, I mean, when you don't have to dive deep into JavaScript and heavy programming, I mean, there's still a lot of knowledge with CSS, but I feel like you probably can get a jump start on actually building things with some basic HTML and CSS knowledge. And I can see, like, I would almost see myself recommending. Something like Fiverr to give a bit of that social proof with email development. Do you feel like you would have taken that same strategy if you would have gone heavy into software engineering, would you have gone the freelance route?

Ivan Hurt:

Probably. So, um, maybe not software engineering, but if I was going for like maybe front end web development, And my logic is you can still go onto Fiverr and build landing pages. That'll give you social proof as I'm a front end web developer, because everybody needs a landing page. Um, most marketing departments, like at my last job, the front end web to web development. They weren't doing that all day for customers like building various landing pages. So I would, if I was going for entry-level a web developer or front-end web developer and I needed social proof, I'd probably do something like maybe a landing page. I wouldn't do anything heavy, but I would probably do like maybe something that just shows. Okay. I came to something basic that would add value to your company.

Don Hansen:

Okay. Do you feel like, do you feel like your freelance work made you more hireable for agency type companies?

Ivan Hurt:

Yes. Okay. Um, and the reason I say that is. You're on with your, when you're doing digital agency work, you're pushing out emails all day. Like you're pushing out like eight to 10 emails all day. You're editing a HTML template that's been tested, but you have a cure work that you have to get done by a certain amount of time. And by me doing the freelancing. Versus join my own project where I could take a year to do this person, wants it done in three days. So I have to figure out how to create their email within three days. And by having like a time constraint, I'm able to apply that to, um, digital agencies because knowing how to manage time, If you can manage it as a freelancer where they give you more like three days, you're not going to be able to do it in a digital agency where they want all the work done within a day that needs to go to QC. And if you have error message errors, you have to fix them and then send it back to QC. So you have to have time management.

Don Hansen:

Okay. Do you feel like your blog was helpful and you finding it that first position?

Ivan Hurt:

No, not really, but, um, it did prove that I could built a basic website. Like it's alive WordPress blog. So it proved to them that I know how to set up WordPress. I know how to do basic things in WordPress, which most digital agencies use and some, some way shape or form, because the last two agencies I've worked at, they were doing emails were press triple. Yeah, 5%, but it was WordPress, WordPress emails and a little bit of trouble, but yeah,

Don Hansen:

so WordPress, I mean, positions just using WordPress. Uh, they're very prevalent and that's why I'm going to be bringing on at least one WordPress developer to dive into it. But I think people underestimate WordPress knowledge that want to break into the industry. I think it is helpful. So with the, I guess maybe they tested you in different ways with the first three positions. How did they test you? Did they give you any technical challenges that they ask questions that they just look at your code?

Ivan Hurt:

Um, for every, for the first suit positioned, they gave me anything. Um, and essentially what they did is they gave me a PDF document of what the email should look like. And then they gave me the assets, which are the episodes that I should use. Like, um, I'll give you an example. The first job, they gave me an email for a game. They gave me, um, emails for a game that pretty much said, Hey, we're launching a new game with a button that says, click here to claim like 5,000 points and add an image. They gave me two days to build it. Um, so what I did is I went to. Um, wrote the code, uh, wrote the code, um, uh, bloated the images too. Um, I think it's called, I am Chichi, so the images will be live, but it's like a image hosting service that I use. Um, And then I tested it and email on acid, email on acid is a QA tool that allows you to see what emails look like on multiple plans, multiple email clients, like an iPhone, all the versions of iPhone. Um, she mail all the different versions of outlook from 10 to 2019. Um, think they've got like Thunderbird email or. It's an email that begins with a T that's not really used here as she does in other countries, but they run the gamut and you put your code and email on acid and it'll analyze it and it'll give you what it looks like on that device. So if there's any issues like, oh, we'll get one. I'll look as one of the things that you have to code a certain way. He was at ghost tables. Um, and what that is is it's just, it's like a Microsoft office, like Microsoft office, like little. Code snippet that you put in front of your tables. So when it goes into Microsoft office, it'll all break your table. Um, there's a, um, that's upstairs crap. If you type in out we'll conditional statements. You'll be able to pull it up, but I'll, I'm on email developers. That's one of the things that we use to make sure everything works in outlook.

Don Hansen:

It sounds like outlook as the internet Explorer of email.

Ivan Hurt:

Yeah, it is

Don Hansen:

okay. It is well, so with my first position, um, it was definitely more traditional front end, but I remember so content would create the emails. And I remember, I don't know if she offloaded it onto front end team or what, but I remember. Thinking, this is kind of ridiculous that I have to, I don't really know all the outcomes, uh, depending on the email client, I remember finding a tool and it made me realize there are a lot more email clients than I thought there were a hand it's very easy for your email to go from looking like this perfect masterpiece to something that's unreadable almost depending on the email client. It's. Um, I guess I have empathy for you having to deal with that.

Ivan Hurt:

Um, the good thing is once you have a good email template that you've tested, um, like everything that we do, we're using templates that we've tested. It's rare that you create something from scratch. Um, because most companies, they have, they, you want their emails laid out in a specific format. And you build your template off that and you test the crap out of it. And when you test the crap out of it, it's going to work because after that, all you're doing is editing text. I'm just putting in the URL for the images and that's it like my day to day, as far as emails, I'm mostly, um, Replacing image tags and replacing text and emailing copies of it to myself, and also testing it to like email on acid. Litmus is another one. But also when I used, yeah, Litmos, Litmos is the one that most companies use. Um, but it depends. Like at my company now we'll use litmus as a financial institution. We lose. But at the other two companies, we were using email on acid. Maybe this is like number one. Email is email on asked is number two. Honestly, they both do the same thing, but email on assets a little bit cheaper.

Don Hansen:

Okay. That's good to know. Um, okay. So essentially, Pretty much have a template you're just sticking to, and once you have that template and you've kind of revised it to try to be compatible across different, um, email clients, you're just replacing texts and images and, and minor things like that, right? Yes. Okay.

Ivan Hurt:

And, um, we have to upload it to the email service provider, like MailChimp, where, and we use that to schedule when the email is going to go out. Um, some email service providers are simple to use others like I'm Salesforce, they're beast. So you have to take specialized training in order to use them. You know, like if you're first starting out for a email developer position, Salesforce marketing cloud, Adobe Marchetto and Oracle Eloqua. You only get special training, but those are, if you've been doing this for a year or two, um, you can. Apply for those positions, but most what the positions I applied for, they were using MailChimp, um, campaign monitor, which are very easy to use.

Don Hansen:

They can get some really expensive very quickly. Doesn't it?

Ivan Hurt:

Yes. And I think it might've gotten more expensive since they think they did a merger recently. Um, I'm not sure if it was in new door TurboTax, but they, sorry, I might've been QuickBooks. I'm not sure, but they did a merger with in the past six months and I use MailChimp for some of the stuff I do for freelancing. And I noticed my prices went up slightly. Not much, but I have a funny fellow there, Bob, go up again, but I'm not a hundred percent sure I'll wait.

Don Hansen:

No. All right. That's good to know. Um, I don't have a, an email list. People keep telling me I should build one. Um, but again, um, I, I hear email marketing converts pretty damn well. And I think that tradition still holds true. I think it's like, uh, maybe you could like tell me, um, industry secret. I had heard that one to 2% conversion. From an email being sent out is actually really good.

Ivan Hurt:

Yes. Um, and the reason that is, is because, okay, and this is just from me doing some freelancing for four clients and the past. If I was to spend their money on social media versus email marketing, email marketing for every dollar I spent, you're probably the 40 bucks back versus social media where you might make, I'm not sure what the number is. It's either five or 10 bucks, but I've tested this. And most of the people who I'm doing. Email marketing, building their emails and helping them do basic, fairly rudimentary email marketing. They're seeing huge return versus trying to advertise all social media. Like they're getting more contracts because they're able to bring people into a process and send emails. Telling them about themselves. It's called like a welcome series where you send a series of emails that you tell your potential customer about yourself, and you're slowly giving them reasons to why you should, why they should buy from.

Don Hansen:

I hear, I do hear that's pretty strong and I, because I've watched different YouTubers and I just try to keep this knowledge in the back of my head, but kind of like a drip series of like three to five emails can be very, very effective at warming your leads up. Um,

Ivan Hurt:

yeah.

Don Hansen:

I feel like I'm missing out, honestly, by not even just with my podcast and my content. I feel like I could benefit from something like that. It's something we probably will look into. But, um, yeah. I mean, email marketing is a lot more powerful than people realize.

Ivan Hurt:

And honestly, it's one of the reasons why, um, they need any about developers. Cause I'll be honest with you. Um, no one really wants to do it because you're doing HTML for mostly like you didn't do HTML five, but I'll be honest with you. The fast few places that I work in, every interview, every interview that I've been on, they're mostly using HTML four and you have to use inline CSS, um, because. With different email clients. If you use an external file, it's going to automatically flag you as spam or trying to do something fishy. And that's probably because back in the day with spam, they were doing all sorts of weird stuff with Java script and external files. So to where it now. Just a basic security protocol. They're not allowing, um, external tiles. Everything has to be inside your email. Like anything that's linking to an external file is a, quite a work, unless it's like an image, but yeah, they're like, I'll, we'll go flag it. Gmail, you go down or.

Don Hansen:

That's good to know. That's definitely good advice. I remember setting up my email kind of long time ago is essentially that wasn't the issue, but it was more of authenticating my emails and kind of just proving to the external email client that it came from me. I remember all my emails for like three months straight and no one was responding to me. It all went to spam and I figured that out.

Ivan Hurt:

Yeah. Um, that process usually for the first month, when you're setting up an email, um, you have to go through kind of like an authentication process with all of the email service providers like Gmail. Um, I don't know. I forget what apple uses, but, um, pretty much for. You have to, they have to trust you. So what I tell people to do when they're first setting out their email is send out basic emails. Don't send out emails that have like spam, where it's like free. Make sure they're very clear, cut, very simple emails that won't get flagged. After, like maybe the first month then your emails won't go to spam. Uh, but the first month they don't trust you. Like, um, when I started email lists for clients, that's what happened. And after the first month they started going to a regular email. Like the first month we just, I just sent out basic emails that avoid words, like free discount. Like there's a Google list of spam words on email. And also depending on what service provider you're using, they will flag those words and tell you, yeah, this is kind of spammy. Well, let me rephrase this. The more expensive ones like Salesforce. Um, Salesforce marketing cloud. They will definitely tell you if it's spammy. Okay.

Don Hansen:

That's really good advice. I wish I would've known that I did when I was trying to figure things out. I did get some of that advice and, um, even just trying to send emails to your other Gmail accounts and stuff like that. And if it doesn't get reported as spam, I don't know if that advice is effective. Um, But I feel like there are a lot of different tricks. Like if you're setting up a new email address, especially with a new domain, you probably should look some of that stuff up to make sure that, um, yeah, like I didn't know about the month thing, but I know there are a lot of different things you can do to try to avoid that spam filter and gain that trust.

Ivan Hurt:

So go ahead, sir.

Don Hansen:

Okay. So, I mean, I was going to end with that good advice. I have a couple more questions. Um, one I've been wanting to ask. So what, what specifically should people learn to have the technical skills to be hireable as an email developer? And, you know, there are probably like a lot of different HTML concepts, et cetera. You don't have to go through everything, but like, what are some core things?

Ivan Hurt:

Well, the basic core skills that you need. Um, you definitely need to know HTML in particularly HTML tables, because everything that you're going to be building, you need to know, um, how to build a table in HTML. You need to know the table, um, T R T D. Um, you also need to know media quarters, um, Different media corridors. You need to know how to write bill. You also need to know, um, in line the CSS, um, which essentially everything with, um, front end web development, you throw out the window and your everything is inline CSS and HTML immediate Corey's. You don't, you do not need a JavaScript. Um, some jobs use JavaScript, but I think it's for something else, but I've been doing it for like maybe two and a half years that I've never used Java script. So don't, don't use Java script. Um, you also need to know some basic Photoshop. You need to know how to crop it in. Um, Photoshop is the tool that you will be using. Um, you also need to know at least one email service provider. The ones that I tell people learn MailChimp MailChimp is free. Um, you don't have to sign up for free and thing. It's, um, free. Up until a certain amount of users learn how to upload a list to MailChimp. And what I mean by list is you have a list of you have a CSV file, an Excel file, and it'll have a column with like first name, last name, email address, just create a simple Excel file with like maybe five names of five emails. Dresses, they could be fictional, learn how to upload it, learn how to schedule it, email in MailChimp, learn how to paste your code into, um, MailChimp. You can learn all of that through like some basic YouTube videos, the MailChimp part, um, learn how to test and email on acid or lip service. So after you've built your email, Build several emails. Why I tell people is build several emails. And when you build several emails, take a weekend where you tell your wife, well, what I did in particular, it says, I told my wife, family, or your significant other who that may be. Don't bother me for the weekend. Sign up for a trial to live, miss or email on acid. They give you seven days during that weekend, test the crap out of your emails and fix whatever issues you have that gives you another four days during the week to, um, if you still then fix it to try to fix them. So you have like a seven day window. Once you do that, put your portfolio up, start applying to jobs, um, get a decent resume. And when you write your resume, focus on email development, the one thing, um, that I've seen over the years from interviewing like female developers and being on the other side is the hiring manager. They really want to see that you want to do HTML email development. Even if you want to use this as a stepping stone for front end, don't tell them that just, just have a separate email portfolio. Like if you're going to apply for a front end later, have two portfolios have one that's strictly emails at one that's a. For front end or whatever you plan on doing, but the one that you present to them, make sure it has at least three emails. Probably. You want to go through your emails that you have in your inbox and look for like a promotional email, like, um, something from the gap where else gap a watch company, um, clothing lines and build those emails, emails. I recommend us build something, build like a fashion email, build something nice. The other thing I would say is, um, have your significant other look at the email, especially if they shop, watch, my wife does, she does a lot of shopping. So I had her look at the emails it's like, and now like that you need to do a different color scheme. I got, I have bad taste, not online, but my wife has better taste than I do. So whenever I build something, I always asked her to look at it and she'll be like good or no, you need to do this, this list and take your advice. Like have someone else look at your house and apply. Um, when you're looking for, um, HTML developer jobs, um, look for an email developer as a job title, email marketing specialist. What else? Yeah. Um, email developer. And email marketing specialist. And when you look at the email marketing specialists, they're going to say, you need to have years of marketing experience apply anyway, because the thing that most people don't understand is that they have marketing people who handle the marketing side. They also need someone technical to do the coding because the marketing person isn't going to touch the code and just apply. You're going to get rejected, but your supply always.

Don Hansen:

I like it. Yeah. That's, that's really good advice. I appreciate you running us through that. Um, Colton, couple things to note, I love the idea of having a separate PO portfolio for email marketing, specifically email development specifically. It's like, you know, whether it's front end or back. And I think, um, some people had the solution that like, they need to be a full stack developers that knows everything and it's not tailored to any specific position. Right. And so they had this solution. Um, put full stack on your resume, apply to this front end position, but no, like this is the way for front end development. Like companies want people that are interested in front end development that I've worked on a lot of front end development projects. And so your resume is going to be tailored to front end. And then if you want to apply to backend, just make sure it's tailored to backend. Cause those resumes are going to look very different. And so, you know, it sounds like that's the same with email development specifically. I like it. Uh, there was one more question I had shoot. Um, that's okay. I don't remember it. It doesn't matter. Um, so overall I think that's a really good advice for people that are kind of just wanting to get into email development. Um, oh yeah. Um, nevermind. It, it's not important. I think, I think the resume one, um, and showcasing your projects as really. Um, I guess I have one more question. Okay. What type of person would enjoy email developmental? Like how do you, how do you know that's what you should focus on? Right. Because I, like, I just DMD an emailed, um, like 15 different coding, adjacent positions. So there are a lot of options out there. So how do you know you're even going to be interested in this?

Ivan Hurt:

Um, to be honest with you. I have no idea. Um, okay. I'll be honest with you. Um, the reason I got into it was my friend was making money and he was like, he was making, and he was a truck driver and he was, we was making six figures. And like, if you get into this, you want to make six figures and he's right. And he's making more than that. And this year I'm going to hit that number. And I don't think I would've been able to hit like six figures as a salary. Um, if I was a front end developer so quickly because, and the reason being is at the front end there, so. Much you have to do to get there. Like dairy is a steep learning curve. Like literally within like two years, I was knocking on six figures this year I've got past it. And technically I've only know my basic skills are HTML CSS. Knowing Salesforce marketing cloud, and a little sequel, and I rarely use sequel versus HTML, CSS, JavaScript react, and the list is ugly.

Don Hansen:

Yeah. That's um, that's interesting. The ramp up in salary definitely surprised me that quickly, but you're right. I mean, for the time investment, but email, I mean, email development, um, they're just, there's. Not as big of a learning curve, not even close. I mean like HTML and CSS is like the starting point for jumping into a front end engineering position. And you have to think about it. It's like you don't have to be in love with any position. I do think you at least need to enjoy some of the problems that you're tackling because most people will give up if they don't and maybe like another high paying position is where you should be aiming for. I think people should seriously consider that, but I mean, for the time investment. The salary ramp up, uh, time sounds pretty good. Um, it sounds like you can at least tolerate your position and you enjoyed it enough to keep it going. Um, yeah,

Ivan Hurt:

I mean, and I work on like cool projects, like, um, I've worked on stuff for a national car company. Um, I haven't been able to drive them with like two, but like I worked on so far, like motorcycles. Like, like, so it's, I'm built in, like, to me that I'm building cool stuff. I like when I was at one, two line agency, I was building emails to let people know major performers were coming to town. Um, like major events, like it's. A lot of it is tedious, but you're doing cool stuff or you're doing like the emails. I think I personally think that they're cool. And over time I learned, I learned to like this because otherwise I would have left and when the front end development route, but I'm on probably be email I'm on do this probably till I retire. Because to me, it's a cool factor that I really can't explain it, but like I'm building a lot of cool stuff that I probably may not be able to build for as a front end engineer, like a built. So for some really nice car companies, I can't say their names, but they're the cars that you'd be like, whoa.

Don Hansen:

That is pretty cool. I like that. Well, I mean, it sounds like you've found your gig. That's awesome. Seriously. Um, a lot of people struggle to find that and, um, I w we dove into quite a bit, I think this is going to be pretty helpful. Um, I think that's all the questions I have. Um, before we wrap it up, was there anything else that you want to do?

Ivan Hurt:

Not that I can think of. We covered a lot.

Don Hansen:

Yeah. Honestly. Um, okay. I love it. So I appreciate that you definitely have an interest in this and that, you know, you've, um, you've landed a few different email developer positions. We went into details that I didn't even expect to get into, honestly, but, um, yeah, so, uh, Definitely consider this option, you know, before we wrap up, I want to give you a chance to kind of shout out anything you want to shout out. Uh, people want to reach out to you, maybe questions or other things you want to advertise. Uh, what do you want to share?

Ivan Hurt:

Um, you can reach out to me on YouTube. If you do, I've been hurt. I have a YouTube channel that talks about email development. Um, if you have any questions you can find me on LinkedIn, just search. I haven't heard. Well, I'm the only one. Who's a female developer. And if you have any questions, I can probably answer them there.

Don Hansen:

All right. Cool. What's the name of your YouTube channel?

Ivan Hurt:

I haven't heard. Okay. This is my first and last name.

Don Hansen:

Um, no, I mean, keeping it simple. It's good for branding. I like it. So yeah, that's pretty much all I had. Um, you know, let me know if you're watching this on YouTube, feel free to come up below. Uh, let me know what you think about the position. We're going to be exploring different positions, but it sounds like email development, specifically the ramp up time. Is much lower, especially for the amount that you might be getting paid for. But, um, yeah, let me know what you think about it. Um, but Ivan seriously, thank you so much for coming on and doing this,

Ivan Hurt:

everything.