April 27, 2020

Should You Use a Recruiter To Help You Get a Developer Job?

I got a chance to interview Hammad, a recruiter with over 15+ years of experience! I wanted to dive into the frustrations of working with some agency recruiters as a developer, and what could be done about that.

1) Frustrations with recruiters
2) Why do recruiters spam you with jobs that aren’t relevant to your skills?
3) Is it effective for recruiters to mass email people?
4) The developer is always in demand
5) Questions to ask recruiters
6) Avoid recruiters that are “sales people”
7) Do you feel like it’s a developer’s market for entry-level developers?
8) How do we figure out that we're working with a good recruiter?
9) Does going through a recruiter limit the salary you can get?
10) Do NOT tell recruiters what you are making in terms of salary!
11) Learning multiple languages vs specializing
12) How do you find a quality recruiter when recruiters aren’t reaching out to you?
13) Who would benefit from an agency recruiter?
14) What should developers be doing to get that first position?

You can reach Hammad on Linkedin. He's invited struggling developers to reach out to him with any career related questions.


Over a year ago, I created a brand new company (DONTHEDEVELOPER LLC) with a very ambitious goal. By the end of this year (2021), my goal is for my business, that helps junior developers get unstuck and get that first position, to become self-sustainable and allow me to do this full-time. If my content has helped you in any way and you'd like to help support me with this goal or get more involved with our community, please consider taking a look at some of the links below. Thank you so much to everyone who's believed in me and has helped support this venture. You're turning my dream into a reality!

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spk_0:   0:00
Welcome back for another podcast episode where we tried to bring in different professionals and different aspiring developers to basically give you as much advice as we can to help you get a position as a developer. So today I have with me Hamed Hamed. Welcome. Hamas has been in the tech industry, has been even recruiting for a very long time. But I love to get the Florida you to kind of get a little introduction to our audience.

spk_1:   0:30
Well, thank you so much, Don. Hello, everyone. My name is Hamad Mopar. As Don said, I have bean in the technology recruitment industries in the past. Now, with 15 years now. So I really started thing that mean for him, Devi to Hera and kind of progressed from there A z say on our side of the business. You know, I have been in the business opportunity and sourcing and including yellow and magenta girls. Purple schools are going, uh, it's more of a yellow and magenta schools. Now I'm over the course of years. I have won multiple hats. You know, I myself was a technical guy. I understand the technology both on dot net Jolla platforms. You know I've worked as a program manager and project manager manager is well, um bean, a partner in a company at least in practiced in and most of the technology project takes our most of our clients are entering Pakistan and in the Middle East, like your GCC countries here in the U. S. I spent a still a lot of time in improvement in technical movement, and one of the things I do actually free of cost is mentoring emerging professionals. Whether they are application developers, architects are anything within the I t arena, you know, I mentored them. I coach them, don't know what to do, what not to do, who to approach Little roach even higher. Kind of what I tell people were in the soul searching moment. You know, folks who started off as B A's and King raise and really looking for some level of direction. So I've done that. I've seen doing that as though since many years now, especially when sitting on the other side of the friends here as a recruiter, I can give them a lot of insights and comes off you know how to prepare for InterMune to how to make your resume invisible. How outline your accomplishments would not within their resume and how to become the recruiters.

spk_0:   2:48
Interesting. The recruiters favorite. I never heard that before. I guess a recruiter does have to have a favorite, but I think that was one of the e I think that was one of the more intriguing things about you is the mentorship that you have done on the side. I think I think that speaks a lot to someone's character. And I think it really does say a lot when you do meet someone else that does provide the free time, too. Get back. I think that's a really positive thing. So that's kind of one of the reasons I window to bring you down and talk with you. So, you know, one of the I'd like to talk about a couple main topics. One. I'm just gonna be very blunt with it. I think developers have gained a lot of frustration with agency recruiters and they are a real part off the job process and they're always an option. And so what I want to dio is kind of dive into those frustrations and see if the solution you know really is Thio, how can you be the best candidate for recruiters for those recruiters that be effective for your job process Or, you know, how do you find the right recruiter? Is that Is that the solution? Right, So I want to dive a little bit into that, and then we kind of follow up with, you know, really some insights into the tech industry. You know, it sounds like you've had a tremendous amount of experience, and I think a lot of people would really appreciate, you know, just off the cuff advice that you have for them. So, uh, yeah, let's Ah, let's dive right in it. So the spam, uh, this man. So let's talk about the spam unlinked in specifically. So I think as a developer and you start noticing this is the years. Go on. Is you're gonna get more messages from recruiters. You are going thio. Some of them are gonna be quality messages. Some of them are going to clearly show that they've read your profile. They've they've done a little bit of research on you and, well, the majority end up looking kind of like a blessed where they just mess messaged a lot of people and you know, you get Java positions when Java isn't even listed in your LinkedIn profile, your kids, you might even get like, just different positions that aren't quite developer positions. When your experience strictly speaks to developer, you could have a blood post. You have a video talk about how much you love programming and building applications, and it doesn't matter. No, no, that's red, you know, like that position just doesn't match your experience. So let's start off with that. Developers received a lot of spam. The more I talk with developers, they really see recruiters as nothing but span. And I know that's not 100% sure, but I kind of want to get a feel for why recruiters think that's like, Is that effective towards them? Why did they send out those mass message is that don't apply to a majority? So what white as developers? Do we get that?

spk_1:   5:50
Sure. So fasting Don. You mentioned a very good thing in your control. You know, while we're talking or putting the question together that the Cougars are agency who Hoovers for our conversation. They are, and they will be an integral part of this process. Why, you know, So you need to understand that. So what's going on here is, if you look at the market down, yes, you have your Fortune 500 companies, Fortune 100 companies, 40 50. And they spent quite a lot of time honestly in building their town acquisition team. Well, when it comes to technical challenge a position, there are a lot of challenges here in the sense that they cannot find or we need not find the level of talent on each our side of the spectrum who can actually do Niego Tyler acquisition. Now you know, sitting on the other side where when you're working on an active project or the project is coming in, depending on whatever, Domi, irrespective of what ever do you mean you're working in a zoo developer or as an architect? The project needs to go like right that's the business meet. And in order to fulfill that business need when the town acquisition, when the internal talent acquisition department gets a requisition or gets a message from CEO or CTO saying that, Hey, we need six developers like so that's quite an urgent message that Hey, we need we need them or we need these developers yesterday. So for the most part, what happens when these talent acquisition Internal Talent acquisition department get those kind of requests in order to get the resume? 11 lesson Extreme going in right or country floor candidates, they have no choice except to contact your brothers and sisters on agency side. So that's how agencies are still a weary, integral part of the process. Other other thing, which we have to understand that now would be gig, economy right. And with everything going on, a freelancing and not to mention with the ups and downs and economic situations, most companies like to hire a contractor in town. At the same token, they don't want to take necessarily any liability, or they don't even want to take, um, people responsible. That's where these agencies kicks it. Where do you say? Okay, you know, any five developers needle through. I do five bolivars needle put them on our peril. And not only that, we will make sure that we can take care of all of their other needs. For instance, if it's a long term contract, most of these agencies do for what you were. Some sort of French benefits is again. That's where day coming. One point is one thing is clear. Clear that for the most part they will going to be a part of this process, whether we like it now the Stanford. But what's happening in the market down, If you look at it most off the technical recruitment into the cause, any shit have actually moved out off us. So there are off course in every domain. In every industry, there are some good ones, and there are some absolute eat that. Now what happens here that when you started receiving those spams most of the time materiality of the kind, those recruiters are not even the Cougars. They are social sitting somewhere outside of the U. S. You know, for example, many of these companies are situated in India. You know where they are working on a different time zone. They're leveraging Lincoln and other social media outlets and not to mention your organic or your traditional job flat times like dice dot com right where they would go and put in your information. That's where what they do in order to deliver, they will do the spam message. They would tie one key works a job or dot and irrespective of looking and anyone's resume unnecessarily or cover peach. And they have won. They would do this plastic with the park off, getting like Maur fish in. During that, I mean, keep it this way and this on that they would go and possibly send you more messages. Um, what irrelevant messaging? Nursing that. Hey, we love your profile. We need to talk. And again, Sure, as a developer, I mean, I'm very direct and very craftsman and saying that when the agency would look at you most of the time, they're not really interested in your bag. They're not interested necessarily in giving you a career guidance, you are just a number four. What happens? It's a contract jewel, and even if it's a full time, well, there's this race that who will submit the most candidates, and in that race, they forget everything else. They're literally forget everything. They look at you as a number as a submission, for that's what you get. A lot of those messages irrelevant wants a swell in your inbox. Given that it's your Gmail account, it's your email account or Lincoln in Mills.

spk_0:   11:49
Okay, that's, you know, that's really insightful. Eso So really, it comes down to they have a job to do. They have spots to fill. They have applications that they need to push out. They probably have a quota. So I guess my question is mass emailing versus looking through Lincoln profiles and sending a message to someone that probably has a higher chance of actually being interested in that. Do you feel like just a mass emailing is more effective at hitting those quotas? Do Agency recruiters often get more applicants by just blasting that out? That will actually foes

spk_1:   12:32
again. Don't depending on the situation. They might be right, depending on the business model. They might. For example, see, that's That's where you can create a distinction between a allege it technical tone acquisition or HR professional sitting in the U. S. Understanding that for life cycle recruitment of how to build that pipeline, how to establish a connection, how to sell a company most most importantly, the company culture, and not just the position to a particular candidate, horses just making the submissions now. Ideally, you know, there are some big names here. Some good names here. We're still doing a very good job, you know, on this contracting front, you know, by making sure that whenever they are contacting these, um, you know, these developers, you're sending them the right message. Enough amount of, you know, kind of like breaking the ice message to get the conversation again. Most of these companies now here, you know, we're doing the right job. They are us raise company. You know, like, if I throw some names here, I have personally worked with them Techsystems. You know, your love I have inside Global Addison Group. These are some of the chip companies who have done very good work into space. They're genuinely interested in helping you out. Worse is just making a submission. I have had seen these situations or came across or heard from my you know, my candidates that hey, this company called me some some non familiar name, you know, beast out of somewhere other than us submitted me for the role in a weary booted company. Say, in Chicago on Ben just vanish. You know, um, they did not provide any level off feedback into the coast. I mean, host submission, feedback. Which is very important to know what happened there. You submitted me on last Monday. You didn't give me any feedback until this Monday. What's happening there? Why? I'm getting rejected again. That's not their 40. They will never gonna do that. First things first, I will say to you, my developers, my emerging developers make sneering developers. First thing is irrespective off the demographics. Irrespective off the economic situation, you will always be in demand and that I'm seeing this. I'm seeing this with utter confidence that you will always be in demand when everything is going integrated. Developers. It's a developers world. It's a candidate market where the candidate decide what he or she would like to do where you know he or she would like to get something. So don't be afraid. When you get these kind of messages. These kind of calls even, you know, sometimes I get calls on your own. Don't be afraid to ask them any questions being up at that point in your money or later, after you finish in the conversation before you get submitted. Um I mean, honestly, if if the recorder is calling you from agency. You need to ask that Borders, Dear relationship, what that company. And then there they are sitting in decline because now we're also happening in the market. Is it's someone else's requisition or opening and someone else is working on it at a tier one tier 2 40 or three level, they might be made making, you know, $5.6 dollars an hour on this phone game. Or maybe, you know, a one time fee off 15 12 to 15 grand. So asked America clearly, what is their relationship with the incline, where they are sitting in that whole equation and how they are fleeing their port? That that conversation should happen before anything else? The moment you get a message or you get a call saying that, Hey, I'm representing a client within Fortune 500. You need to ask all these questions from them before they actually even diving into your bag. And if they're not giving you if they're not giving you any answer there, or are you? If you're not getting, um, satisfied at this point at that point, I would say you can classify them as what I classify them as wrong numbers they are the wrong numbers in day. You know, I don't want to get engaged with them. You don't want to move forward

spk_0:   17:32
that you know that. Okay, so a couple of questions came up from that. I thought that was that was fantastic advice. I'm gonna I'm gonna dive into one before I forget it. So you have distinguished a huge difference between recruiters in India and recruiters and the United States. What about recurrence in India are different Or more importantly, like what? What makes them different? Is there a cultural influence? Is there just just Does the recruiting sector work differently in India? Our expectations different in India. So like what? What makes India different from the United States in terms of of agency recruiters?

spk_1:   18:17
Well, I would sit down. It's much more off the nature off dear respected job. So their job is not to cater Mesirow. Their job is not to nurture necessarily. They're looking into making that contact with you number one and submitting your profile to their client. Whether they are operating at a tier one level to your two level or to your three level as fastest deko. So what typically happens that most of these companies have access to a vendor management system. What did you They would talk to you? Sometimes they would ask you some very five questions. Is low or sensitive questions as well into Okay, I need to know the last four digits of your Social Security number, your month and date off your birthday, if you will. And then they will stumble you in. So I guess the nature off the job matters the most. What kind of role? Airplane? Most of the time, these are not your season. Talent acquisition professionals. They are seals. I mean, there may be they are, um, Middleman, if you will. You know, they are playing that part only here they are getting the resume from somewhere, whether it's letting or any other job. They're looking into the keywords there not been doing. Ah, comprehensive search on your background. You know, that's why you do see in your inbox you do see a lot of requirements coming in for say, um, job. I scored developer. If not just cordial it over, and you may say, Hey, I'm not a court dollar developer. Yes, Java is one language of work on another doctor guy, for God's sake, Why are you sending me this again? They don't They don't have the ability to distinguish that because that's not what their rules, their role is more of a salesperson. At the end of the day, number of submissions do matter in their life. How many submissions they can do and in that whole spectrum in that whole game, if they would reach out to 25 people in a day, they will do that. Not only that, they will submit all 25 of them, which is not again of that strategy. But ball crosses that out of the 25 to 3 or four real quick. Okay, that's that's really what a lot.

spk_0:   20:54
Okay, so so kind of. What you're saying is United States. A lot of companies will outsource some of their recruiting needs, and what they usually look for, probably for cheaper rates, is people that have don't have a breath of experience, that arm or just, you know, trying to fill the positions versus having, you know, working with the season recruiter that is going to work harder to find a good fit. So I get it. So it's like it's basically two different job roles, as you described. Um, I think I understand that part a little bit better. You had actually mentioned a really good question asked like So I want to dive right into, like, what? Questions should you ask, Right? So we as a developer, you mentioned, it's it's kind of our market. You know what? Before we dive in this, I actually want to ask you a really important question. Do you feel like it is a developers market? If they are just starting out, they don't have any experience.

spk_1:   22:01
Yes, I strongly do believe that the reason being is part of my role. Or I have Bean very much involved in college level recruitment, our recruitment as well, especially from your movie school. See in Chicago. If you look at our Bonner champagne, have a very good program. I t is burning good. You like seeing that some great talent from here is low. So what's what's happening at the entry level is no. You have to look at historical perspective on that. What's happening is last 23 years, you're going to see the inclusion of talent on each one visa kind of on a declining pack. Okay? And I'm not gonna go into the argument off whites happening. Is it good or that? But with that declining pattern, lot of workers from tech professionals from India, China, any other countries of they are not coming in, or it is getting difficult for them to even opting the work, What that is doing. It's putting a lot of burden on the local mark, you know, in terms off. Hey, we need to hire someone today and making not necessarily lead or disperse in to come in necessarily from other country in the ground. And that is changing the focus on many companies where they're thinking now, kind of like the cost benefit house. Okay, I can get someone, um, entry level from college who might have done a CEO or CS major. Right? And then room this person in within our at most this stuff with our technology. These so that shift is now making these entry level candidate or set a fool candidates very, very important. So yes, to answer your question and three little talent right now is making lot of strive and getting a lot of visibility in the market as well. Because they're number one. They're here, you know, they can join. They are willing to join your willing to learn they have the attitude to take the challenge.

spk_0:   24:18
You know that. I think that's gonna be really encouraging for a lot of people here because you do, you know, there is some increased saturation. Is boot camp start pushing out more graduates? And, um, I think even with Obama's message about everyone, I believe it was Obama. Everyone should become, not become programmer, but should learn. Programming has kind of like a main message from the president. And I think I even saw a huge boost of interest in programming just learning development in general after that message, which was really encouraging to see. But I I think your messages were encouraging because you do see a little bit of saturation. I think people, you know, I do think it's normal when you're getting a first position, you're gonna get tons of rejection, probably more than a lot of other professions. But I think people are really gonna appreciate hearing that side of things where, you know, companies are a little bit more desperate. We don't have as many people coming into the United States, and I know there's a whole process to get that work permit. So it does sound like at least you know, for better. Where's people in the United States? It's still kind of is their their market. It still does give them a little bit of an advantage, too, to get that first position. Does that sound about right?

spk_1:   25:40
Right. And, uh and you know what? Honestly, some of the traditional schools or universities they're going, I guess if phenomenal job in putting this in, the students had that hate. You know, you have a worked whatever you're learning in a school or even in folks who are going to These boot camps were a full stack development for Java script development. They are getting the messages and all that. You know what? Do not noble yourself. For example, if a company is calling you from anywhere and telling you Hey V offer you an entry level programmer or development job for $20.25 dollars an hour, you know what, do not do not take that because again they didn't really are trying to rule. And it's you who need to it's you as a developer who need to set up for your significance in the heart, you are in demand. I'm not saying that Enter level won't should, um, immediately asked for six figure salary. No, but most of the school's career centers they're doing a phenomenal, phenomenal job in setting up that the parameters, those parameters. And what are those that say If someone is coming up with a four year degree and then a massively, they should ask something a tangible salary off a developer and not not a B A, you know, or not a two way, Asper said. You're going in as a developer, you have a responsible job to do. You have an important integral part in this whole process. So do not go bald yourself, and I would humbly request again. Sometimes it happens don, you know when you're in the market and you're not seeing that trench and you not cracked that not you get desperate. You get frustrated. It

spk_0:   27:30
was like,

spk_1:   27:30
you know what? Okay, I'll take the first job, whatever I'll get. I'll see don't do that because again it's you who set up your work, Tina, and you have a lot of work. You are going in for something very important. Look at the job and then, based on that, set up your well. If someone is offering you a entry level development job for 40,000 $50,000 would be promise that all you're gonna learn a lot, I would humbly say Do not get desperate, not take that job, you know, because your work is somewhere beyond

spk_0:   28:09
it, just to give a little bit of respect. Our give some context of that year when you're talking about the specific numbers like 40 50,000 you wouldn't accept eyes that in Chicago. Or is that in a small town as well?

spk_1:   28:25
Well, you know what? Irrespective of its again, it's It's not a game of Don. It's not a game. All who are It's the market for your skill again. It is the market for you're still the Maur programming languages you know, or you have done or have been exposed to, even in the school setting in your internships in your respected school projects, the more important you are. For example, if someone is sick quitted full stead development, Ling's along with that some scripting legs which has bean being used a lot knowledge. He's, like, bite on. Um, you know, ask Percy or someone have exposure to devil upside of things. Like if someone had worked with Dr, you know, Tuber native were Miri Market. So it's it's depends on the skill set you're bringing to the table. It's not about Oh, I know. I'm a full stepped of over. Okay, I know this language that it's the collection off stuff you're bringing to the table again in the schools majority of them, including the boot camps. They're doing a phenomenal job teaching your multiple multiple legs, so, you know, get used to get used to it. And, you know, make sure that you were asking for your work again. You're not going in? Um, nothing against anyone. You're not going in as a helper as assistant. You're going in as a developer.

spk_0:   29:59
You know, I think you do a really good job of instilling the mindset that even like you said, a lot of boot camps do a lot of even colleges. Do I? I think I think the mindset is really what people are gonna find encouraging from your message and a Samara specific numbers to go for. I mean, they're they're tools like glass door. They give a little bit of visibility into you know what others are making in your hair. And, you know, I even think like a conversation with Recruiter is really where you can also get some insight that is a little bit more targeted. You can ask recruiters very specific questions. If they're a good recruiter, like it's someone that you're gonna be working with, you finally get that position. So, you know, I think as far as, like, what specific number you should accept. Maybe that's a good question to ask. How much am I worth? How much should I be going for you feel like? That's a question you would encourage newer developers to ask.

spk_1:   30:57
Absolutely not only Dad, you know, if this intruder is genuinely entrusted don in finding a not a job, a career for you and again, I do this a lot on my side of the spectrum, where if I'm working with a client who say, just offering $70,000 you know, I mean, I'm just give you one example for a entry level software engineering job. I would I would be very, very transparent. And I'm always late, transparent in my communication with my candidates that Hey, yes, this sounds low here in downtown Chicago, but this is what you're gonna get out of. You know, I have had people. I've hired people in my career at 70 kid with the promise that after two years, if you're working in this shop, you know you will learn we will pick up enough skills to make you eligible for a fortune. One company or a rap. You did companies like Wal Mart or Amazon, you know, And then you can go there. Not only more skills with a better title with a Barris, Ari. So sometimes, yes, it is a trade off. But again, not many recovers are in the business off doing. They would almost call you and put it in front of you. Hey, this is what I'm offering. This is what the company is offering. Take it or leave it. You want to get some of their or not? You know, again, it boils down. Dad, Recruiter. Or I did define the Rickover individual who is interested in working with and again on your I'm not selling anything but to this plaque, all I'm requesting any emerging of developer or any professional who's listening to this. I mean, feel free to contact me If you are in a limbo where you can't decide what to do. Feel free to contact me on Lincoln again. I do not charge anyone. Anything for these kind of advice is that this is This has been my passion work with especially folks who are embracing stem education. I work with them very closely. I make sure I find them the right career path and not a job. If I'm saying this on this platform, if you are stuck in some sort of limbo where you can identify in the opposite, we're have interest in you or not pay only only connect with me on LinkedIn. I will work with. I will tell you what to do. I will. There's nothing to be afraid off here. You know, you are asking for your skills. You are asking. I mean the recruiter. If he's or she's genuine, they should tell you what is in it for you. I mean, for me, my candidates are my assets. I remember placing someone in 2000 and five. I saw him last year, you know, I placed him as a software engineer. One. I saw him last year in 2019 in a restaurant where Informant said, It's what he recognized me and I was with my family. He was in this family. He recognized me. And today he's a director. I mean, you got to build that level of relationships. You've got to build that. No relations like we technology recruiters are talented musician professionals. We have to respect people like that. I mean, that's that's what I practiced. That's what I teach.

spk_0:   34:31
That's that's quite the message. Well, first of all, just really appreciate the kind offer to help people with their direction. If you don't mind, I'm actually gonna Are you okay with me making a linked in post to kind of just talk a little bit about that and I'll like you,

spk_1:   34:48
actually, you know, again, whatever. And I'm seeing it, but all of my open heart, I have done this quite a lot in my career. I mean, I'm very proud to see that I have a 10 year old son who is in development. He's already doing the job sculpting right now, you know. So that's that's something. And he hears me talk with my candidates. When days when I'm working from my home office, he listens to me. You listen to me. I mean, I have one going up at home. You know, I'm that genuine in someone and advice. I don't do this or for monetary reasons. If someone is someone I hired like 10 years ago is going up the ladder, it gives me a weary. You know, we're very big satisfaction in my heart in my mind. And that's why I say that. I mean, you have to distinguish the Cougars versus sorcerers. Worse is who is working in your interest sources who is not working in your interest. It's It's pretty easy to get, um, you know, irrespective of your current level, when you're on the form with someone, you can hear their tone how they're talking to you. Are they just interested in taking the resume and moving it from point A to point B? Or are there really generally interested in learning more about you at the same token helping you getting your next role? Which could be, uh, big Ning step or a stone, a stepping stone in your courier.

spk_0:   36:23
So you know what? That's a really It's a really good question to ask. And sometimes I think people want to know the right questions asked. But sometimes it is just a tone. That feeling that you get, Do you feel like you can trust them? Do they have their best for your best interests at heart? I think that's a really good message. Let's let's time or into that. So we kind of talked about some of the frustrations and where that is sourced from where that comes from with recruiters. But let's talk about like, how do we figure out that we're working with the recruiter that has our best interests in mind? How do we figure out that we're working with the recruiter that has, you know, a depth of experience and that's, you know, that's gonna show in the process of getting you that position? How do we find a good recruiter? Let's let's kind of dive into that

spk_1:   37:10
great question, Don. So a ZAY said. They're always good people and not so good people in the one thing you absolutely would like to do. And I guess There's a little bit investment needed there in terms off your time. Maybe invest a little bit more time with them on the phone. You know, again, as anyone could send you a very smart, very catchy message and right. Oh, you know, this is it for you. You are that one candidate for this client of mine. You do grade their cultures. Awesome. What you need to do is to set of some time with them 15 to 20 minutes on the phone again. I know I'm asking, Full blown, maybe a developer or someone lightning school, taking out the time. But that is essential. Because when you get with someone on the phone and you stop asking these questions on it, Okay? Okay. You you have this dot Natural available for what is your relationship? Looks like you know how many people who have lace here how many years off relationship you have with this calling. You know what I will do here? I mean, ask those questions in that first call before diving into your background. It is very essential that Okay, you know, what's my career path of flight? You're offering me this entry level job What is the courier progression with light? What? What What is the hierarchy off? Um, levels here in this company on guy will explain that more in terms of, you know, some companies have only three levels. Their software engineer, senior software engineer, an architect that would show you as a developer you know where to where you can go into the progression in that company. If you tend to stay there for 2357 years, what's your progression look like? Ask a question about the culture off the company that could That could happen the second Paula's. No. But the first call. Please do make sure you establish that relationship with that between that recruiter that agents in the Cooler and the company they are representing again most of the time. What happened is thes eating circulars to talk to you with no tangible job, you know, meaning they would like to build their own respected and the position pops, and then they were cells or they could take your residence. Hey, I haven't spoken with this phenomenal candidate. His name was done, and he could be a weary good set for any open rule in your organization, that's what that's a reversal. They do that a lot of. So what do you have to understand that the requirement or the position they're selling is midget this tangible? You cannot find out without talking to them on the phone and extending dear relationship with that compass.

spk_0:   40:21
Okay, so that's that's what you mean by understanding their relationship with the company. I you know, I have suspected that a lot of recruiters were building up a pipeline. Sometimes it doesn't like there just aren't details about a specific position s so that I guess it is something to be weary about. Uh, you know, I actually had an interesting experience where I talked with an agency recruiter and this was going into my third position as a developer. I talked about it, this recruiter, and he like It sounded like a really good fit. I was transitioning from a front and roll into a full stack rule, and it was a good conversation overall until we talked about salary. So So I really want to dive into this because this is this is a topic that I talk about a lot with a lot of emerging developers, But What? What information? Okay, so what? Let's start out with my experience. I refuse to give my salary because the recruiter mentioned that I should expect about a 10% bump in my pay. And so I knew I could get more than that. I knew I was underpaid. I knew I could get more than that. So I was very hesitant on telling my salary. He wanted to focus on the specific amount I made. And so what I ended up doing was like that was my last time I've ever interacted with an agency recruiter. And I gotta I went off on my own and I got a 36% bump in my pay. And so what was frustrating for me was that the recruiter focus so much on what my salary waas, and that he didn't really have my best interests at heart and getting He wanted to get me a good fit. But I also have a little bit. I take a lot of chances, and I wanted a much bigger bump in my salary. So doesn't recruit her care more about getting that position like even a good recruiter. Do they care more about getting that position filled versus trying to get you to where you're earning the amount that you really feel like you should be earning. So, like, you know, I'm trying to get an idea of, like recruiters intentions overall when it comes to salary.

spk_1:   42:44
So typically the agency recorder. Actually, it goes for the most working girls in their favor to get you the higher salary because of, based on that, to get a bigger commission check. But what is important, Don, is majority of the states here in United States now, including Illinois, including California, including New York. They have mandated the jurors or HR departments not to ask anyone's currents. Terry. So someone is still doing that. They're against the law. So make sure you understand that it's a long now. As a recruiter, I cannot ask you, Hey, Don, are you currently meeting? I cannot ask the specific numbers or the bonus structure anything because it has been mandated by the law in most states, you know, not every state is abiding or not every seat have to do that. But what is important here is you give them you ask them the range or you give them the reach irrespective of what you are currently making again. As you said, then there could be nanny sectors. Why you would be making 65,000 right now. You know where your market would mean For 85 like me, a smaller company might be closer to your home. It might be the company offer view more equity versus be Saturday. There are a lot of components there, right? Rich? A recruiter would not be some 11 or he or she doesn't need to know. What is important is what is your work in tow it smart, you know, So do not in any situation not tell them what exactly you're making. Instead, ask them what is and they should ask you. This question is or what is your salary expectation? If you are asking you, what are you currently making again? They're wrong number, you know. Do not not give them the numbers or not out your salary. Stir your whole package. Yes, they may the main negotiate you on Frenchmen. If it's then they say, Oh, my client is only offering 10 days of vacation. That's fine. You know, you can say, Hey, you know I have 15 days right now. A 50 days. The fudge benefits is a different story. When it comes to the base was bonus structure, not tell them what you're currently making.

spk_0:   45:18
I love it. Okay, so I don't know if he asked that question before. After that, that law did come in a place that's that's really interesting. I know. So don't disclose your salary. Give a range or, if you were completely oblivious, asked arranged. The recruiter is recommending

spk_1:   45:38
Yes, and they should. They should if they are good. A true that they should be. I mean, there is. In fact, that's why I'm Tony to get on the phone with them. Because in that 1st 15 20 minutes, you can really IRA now toasting their respective off. You know you would like to get submitted. Submission is, in my opinion, is the second or third step. You would like to know hers again. The company, the stability of the company, culture of the company, what they're offering you know what kind of rules there what pen off security they have available within their I T department. Is that, um I going in as a developer and doing a job off, be a queue way and the whole nine yards or what's my rule there again? Most of the job description on nowadays hiring manager look for 65,270 schools in one candidate. They are getting greedy, but not everyone can do everything you know. So you have to understand really well in terms of what they are looking. They're looking for that 67,000 skills in one person that might not be the right room for you and that that conversation could end right. There would be much respective commenting that, No, that's not what I'm looking for, you know, in my curtain.

spk_0:   46:54
You know, that's a really good point. So a lot of a lot of jobs are leaded. Job postings do list, you know, three or four languages. Sometimes they don't even work well together. It's, uh, like in the advice that we generally push for is even if you don't feel the requirements, you still apply. Like what? The expectation isn't that you're gonna be a perfect fit. No one is ever a perfect fit, so the push is to apply. But my my question for you is what do you think about learning several languages to make yourself marketable versus learning a single language and going into more depth in knowing it. Better to make yourself more marketable, which would usually for inspiring developers,

spk_1:   47:41
you know, don. I mean, the advice really does make yourself marketable in terms off your comfort zone And why I'm saying this because now it is. What's happening in the market is what Indies from agile setting. If you have been assigned stories, you know, you may have to work as a you know, there's a new not that new, but there's a turn of the market bonus s steps, you know, suffer development, general and tests. When you are an s debt, you are just what you're writing. A cold. We're testing. You're doing the testing on level off testing, possibly on your own code. And then you are sending that court to the point. You know, it's it's because of, you know, basically written. That's from setting. You are speeding up the process or the whole deployment to get shrink, maybe in a day or two days, horses, two weeks. But then, really, you need to ask yourself, don't know what you are most comfortable again. That's why this whole paradigm got started in the market. The first list. Oh, this. He's a developer. He can be devil, for it is not necessarily not every developer is actually interested in doing a devil work. They would like to confine themselves within the full life, full lifecycle, Yes, life cycle development as DLC or whatever methodology or or that company is implementing or adopting. But they want their respective role in that whole losses, so it's okay to learn multiple languages. It's it's It's okay if you are familiar over too strong. Three. Scott, Which could be again. It's up to your comfort zone to design. I would not push someone to Java development if someone is Maur implying with Dot that Why? Because Microsoft does or do a very good job in providing you a lot of help. A lot of assistance as a developer on bones, darkness, even like they came off the doctor core. 2.0, which is still just open source. That's still a Microsoft platform versus Java, something very open ended open source. So really, it depends as a as a software engineer, as as that and on your comfort zone if you have the ability, If you would like to pick up more than four languages, go for it. But if you're doing it, just because the market is demanding you to do that we don't know because I was going to happen is or the course of your career path or your job, you will get burned down. You're gonna get burn out. You really What the heck did I come into The knowledge you forthis, you know. So there has to be a balance there. As we have balance in our personal life, we have to have a balance in our professional life and in our career, girl, you know?

spk_0:   50:40
Yeah, I love that message. It really is pushing forward with. I mean, quite frankly, like, what makes you enjoy coding in the first place? If you don't prefer Dev ops, you know, don't just learn, Dev ops. See, you're more marketable. Learn what you love to do and be better at it. Become better at it and then market yourself is that I think that, uh, like the most important piece of that is you do that's you don't burn out. Do that So you still enjoy what you're Do it. I really think that's fantastic advice. You see, you talk about like we even dove into How do you distinguish a bad recruiter from good recruiter? I think you gave really good advice about that. But how do you like so? Especially for aspiring developers where they're not getting as many messages from recruiters as an aspiring developer. How do you find a great recruiter? How do you find a quality recruiter when they're not messaging? You can You are like, you know. Are you in that stage of the process?

spk_1:   51:42
Yes. So, you know, I think nowadays, in the past two years, So, um, as Microsoft has acquired Lincoln, Lincoln has became that that miraculous black home where you could do a whole lot of genuine neck work. You know, um and then you can find the right people I can't stand. It's all about finding the right three years in the game, you know, in any step off your life, you know? So what I would recommend or advised you are emerging developers leveraged Lincoln to the fullest. And when I see that, I would say any company, any organization you would like to work or any industry say, if you would like to be a part of insurance, don't great. You know, try to find the key players in that because that networking we're going to help you in finding the right people in your life. In your career. Yes. You know, it may not happen overnight. It's not gonna happen. But I would try to do next. Working especially would in house talent acquisition professionals, for example. You know, if I would like to be apart all Amazon, you know, very not know company, right? You know, I would instead of going to a Turk party, you know, I would go and find people in Amazon again. Not very hard to do. Go on, Lincoln good and start building that relationship. And those relationships will eventually help Trust me in all most of the time. And most of the organizations, the hiring managers, you know, they are very busy, you know, they might not have enough time to go on Lincoln and build their relationship, um, so that they can general build their teams. That job is given to community given to a internal talent acquisition or outreach professionals, so try to build those relationships worse. And then again, in that process, I have seen some hiring managers who are very engage in D Tonic was in process. They would like to build that beach. You know, the collaborated with talented position when it comes to building relationships. What these schools who are offering CSC degrees, they're very much involved there. I have seen CEOs and Cee Io's getting involved there, and it really helped old sights. You know, if it will get in the right talent and on the talent side, on a candid side, getting into the right company where the culture is, where people are valuing your skills mean where you're not a number where you are somebody an active participant in the game. Try toe those relationships again. I'm not saying do not real relationship agency recruiters, but most of the time, when you have the direct relationship, what the H R department, someone in that company, whether it could be a college recruiter, technical record or someone down the line that always being so leverage again I have Lincoln has bean a blasting for You know, there's a reason why Microsoft so many so much millions of dollars for this miraculous black. This black lung is awesome. It's a one stop shop for building relationship going, that working, finding jobs, the whole nine yards tried to leverage that and then for also for recruiters. I'm sorry for developers. I would request him to be visible on sites like Stack or Full because what's happening now this will that powerful was just a development community. Now you would be. They have now the recruiter part as low, or the company is offering recoupment seats as well. So you would see Riku vers even hiring managers, getting in there and seeing your work get active on stack powerful or platforms like stat.

spk_0:   56:03
You know, that's really interesting is I? I've always seen Stack overflow as another way to expose what you can do right to reduce the risk they can get a feel for Look where you are. Technically, uhm, I always saw it as something that you would link externally. I had no idea recruiters were actually seeking people out on stack overflow. That's that's amazing.

spk_1:   56:26
Oh, yes, 00 and if I tell you how much that colorful is charging the other side to get being that access, you will probably be very surprised. It's it's very expensive, but it pays the cost. What most companies are doing instead of giving or allocating that morning to or that budget to turn party with tours. They are investing in these smart platforms, and they're doing their internal recruiters. Really the tools to find these again. What I called yellow and magenta schools are better at experience level at the entry level I have seen just last year. Wound. I've seen three companies taking that money off from that turn party agency Human walking into technology like stack war fel like lead again. Lincoln Recorder license is expensive as well, but it please it is very justified to have that because you not only get the benefit off directly interrupting with the talent with no middle person, you can get the clean off the cop that way is

spk_0:   57:40
I think a lot of before really gonna find that helpful. I mean, that I learned I definitely liked a lot of new things today, but I never expected that, Uh, well, so so agency recruiters exist, and I Diggory they dio and I agree that you know, before I reach out to an agency recruiter, I'm most definitely gonna try to build a relationship with an intern. And it's probably gonna be for the company that I'm interested in. But, you know, kind of my final question with agency recruiters is how who should go within agents, go through an agency recruiter and who should do it on the room. And even if that means like reaching out in messaging people specifically and building, you know, just building that relationship on their own. So who goes with the agency recruiter and who should go on there?

spk_1:   58:36
So absolutely, You know what? The answer to this is very simple. I mean, the respective off your level wouldn't Didn't that higher your entry level or your middle of works? Millions. One thing we establish, you know, initially that they do access, they do play some part, you know? So I would not say I would not put a limit necessarily on someone that your emerging tone do not connect with them, I guess you know, ee didn't say this, but I'm saying this now that it's almost that trial and error process, right? You connect with someone at the agency loving you see the level off attention, the level of respect, the level of mutual relationship you're getting from them. You're getting what you are trying to get that for, You know, keep them within your network. If you do not see that. And again, it's not that difficult to gauge that level of relationship in your 1st 2nd call with them or you're e mails with them, how much interested they are in view, you know? I mean so at every level. You need to keep up. You need to go your relationship with them. What would the good ones? And we already talked about how I didn't like the good ones, mostly the US these companies here they have that level off relationship at the flying and to get you in, you know, I mean again, tech system have done. It's a nominal job. Or that they have disbar me off business involvement. Evil were always a decline site, making sure they're the candidates they are representing. Get the attention what? The desert. You know you have Robert half. You know, we are doing an excellent job. There is what dis peck to the courier level I guess everyone can get engaged with them. Yes, 11 element here that for the most part, if the companies are trying to fill an entry level job, Davey not involved the agency recruitment. And that's where your relationship as an entry level candidate with direct stakeholders hold a lot of value. Reason ring. There's no company would like to be 2020 25 grand for a still an entry level, you know, within dear faculties.

spk_0:   1:1:02
Okay, that makes sense. So So even if you

spk_1:   1:1:05
order dollars, I also want one movie in which I didn't mention here is like, What all of this game, You know, with all of this. This is not a one time thing done that you go on any platform like Lincoln and nor stack mournful. Put your name and get out. It's It's this whole. It won't bring crosses. I would say, you know, making that relationships and, you know, depending on that reference system was a lot of delving into these more. What I mean by that is, if I'm connected with any software engineer or any tech professional on my Lincoln I have done, I have bean to a point where someone else will stage a job. And I thought of that as a candidate until I told them, Hey, this a cougar in this setting in this domain is looking for a job. Are looking for a candidate. Go talk to them. So that reference please, whatever you build, that always is, and it's in our ongoing practice. It's not just a one time thing that you went into any social media outlet and connected with hungry. Now you have to do this on a constant breeze is you never know. Even in these time off prices where companies are laying off, there are companies are hiring. You never know who could become that valuable chain in that command to get you your next role. So I would say constantly become make that habit off. Connecting with that. Those connections are always now always be off.

spk_0:   1:2:55
I, like that may make that habit of connecting with people you know. It's not just that's a really strong thing to say, because people focus on why gonna build connections to get positions. But it's really about building a strong habit that's not only gonna help you build your network. And as you said it will kind of have effects, you know, even down the road when you wouldn't even expect them. But it's honestly a good happen to build for anything in life, just building connections in general. And just you know, I think a lot of people are nervous and interviews, and they're nervous even connecting over the phone with the recruiter when they've never done it. It's like build that habit, build that strong, have it and really just get better with your communication skills and it gets you exposure to the tech industry. And I think I think building your network and connecting with people to read your entire life is such a good habit. That's why I, like, want to highlight that. I really liked that. You said build a good habit for that. I just got that right. You know, I think I think you've done a really good job at first of all, distinguishing you know how to find a good recruiter, but also you know how that conversation should even play out on. And really, I love that you emphasized. Developers have questions that they should ask. It's it really. I do feel like It's a mutual fit, but I think a lot of developers feel like it's one sided, like they have to sell themselves instead of asking questions to see if is the recruiter a good fit right on. And I think that's a very common misconception with newer developers because they're they're nervous, they don't have confidence. Imposter syndrome is strong, and you know, it's really kind of a tough time. But it is a developments market, and I think you've really emphasize and that's that's encouraging to hear. So I mean, you know, we could probably end off on this. You you given a tremendous amount of information about even what developers can do. Is there any last piece of advice on what a developer can do to make themselves more marketable? What, What can, especially in emerging developer and aspiring developer coming into the industry, you know, really, what should they be focused on in trying to get that first position where what's really gonna catch people's eye?

spk_1:   1:5:24
Absolutely. So you know, I have always advised this to my developers, to my tech professionals, look at something within your respected roaming look at something which could be which could become catchy and I don't think I looked at. For example, if someone is a jobless Kruger out, developed, correct. There is always in youth lever off. JavaScript coming. You know, like a year ago, no one knew about react, Duchess. Now everyone is using So try to get associative rid with groups you know, on social media outlets. Or try to read a lot in terms of what could become in new are emerging phenomenal. Wouldn't your respected don't again? I'm not saying you go out of. I'm gonna give you a quick example here. There are a lot of people in my network who were relation all data. These guys relational data, please. And then some years ago, they start seeing open source paradigm popping up. So then they started as the wild keeping their day jobs. They started investing in murdering the open source data like Mongo doing, you know, like big data. How do, uh, like building clusters? And while they did that, he not only added the knowledge within their spectrum learning spectrum, they actually need themselves very marketable. You know, I remember many years of when people didn't know as goofy as East emerging scripting language. Some of my friends, some off some of the people I mentor, I told them, started looking at and they started looking at it. Not only that, they became so marketable that they actually got a job within that distracted areas, you know, So try to look try to within your respected, going with him, your friend tried to look for emerging things like a lot of data, these people or that Alex people, they were not looking into a I aspect or machine learning aspect. They started looking at it when it didn't became a big phenomena, and now they're very marketable. So within your respected only look at that that new emerging flavor language or a technology, a piece of technology, even a smaller one that could become a phenomenon in the next 2 to 3 years.

spk_0:   1:7:58
I like that. Even if it's, you know, there is this thing where you need to be careful of, you know, spending all of your time looking into something new, that simply quiet. Yeah, but also, you know, a lot of especially a lot of experience developers. I think I think good ones don't do this, but a lot of experience. Developers will kind of just stick with what they know and even just a little exposure, even just building a single personal project to learn a new framework to learn a new emerging technology. I hear that. You know, you're saying it's gonna make you more marketable. I also I still think, you know, at a certain stage like you, you need to branch out. You need to get a breath of experience because differently, just different frameworks. They're gonna introduce a different type of solution, a different implementation that might, you know, other frameworks didn't really give you that perspective. And it really is just another tool to your tool set. And it's a bonus that it does make you more marketable. So I like that idea of, like, looked, look at like connect with groups like This is a, you know, a better time than ever to to really explore online, but connect with groups that you think are really interesting And and hopefully those groups could be a little bit ambitious in, you know, emerging technologies and talking about them. And, you know, having a few people in the community that really do dive into that? Because I think if you surround yourself with people and go into those types of communities, I think you're just gonna be interested in learning new things in general. And you just become natural to keep yourself marketable because you're always trying something new. But I like that suggestion

spk_1:   1:9:48
and you and, you know, done it. It might be like, wouldn't the spectrum off your own genre your own moral? You know, you may not have to pull out of that, you know? I mean, there are things within your own respected world which could become valuable in the next three years to your five year spent. Keep an eye on them.

spk_0:   1:10:11
Yeah, I think that's great advice. Well, how about that kind of about wraps up the interview. I really appreciate you coming on what I am gonna do. I'm gonna sic my promise. I really appreciate the offer to just answer people's questions, but I'm gonna make a link to post. And do you mind if I actually put your LinkedIn in the the notes of the podcast episode?

spk_1:   1:10:36
Absolutely. Not a problem. And again, this this has been my I mean, I give back to the community in any way possible again. I've been doing this for 15 years. I would like to educate people, especially our new Gen Z, in terms of how to get in, how to get situated. How they did it was anything they've won. You know, I'm really open and wall injure to help, you know, to them, you know, in in terms of getting themselves visible to resenting them so anything they want leverage my experience. I mean, I really want to share and really want to help.

spk_0:   1:11:16
I really appreciate that. I think a lot of people are gonna appreciate that. So So thank you again. So much for that offer. And thanks for hopping onto the podcast. You obviously have a depth of experience that is gonna show that has showed in all of your answers. So I just want to say thanks again for hopping on is a pleasure talking with you, but yeah, I mean,

spk_1:   1:11:38
we're inviting me, you know, it doesn't mean a pleasure on your being on your chest.

spk_0:   1:11:44
Yeah. No, it's, uh it's, uh It was definitely a pleasure. I'm glad we did this, but yet stick stick around for about five minutes. afterwards, but we'll go ahead and wrap up because if if you do have questions and you really kind of just wanted, even just build a relationship with someone with an incredible amount of recruiting experience, Ahmad, I'm gonna post is linked in the episode notes, and I'll actually make a linked in posters. Well, but thanks so much for joining us. And I hope you have a good rest of your day. Am I?

spk_1:   1:12:17
Thank you, Doc. Bye.